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Filter Forge

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  #11  
Old 05-26-2006, 05:17 AM
filterforge filterforge is offline
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Doug -- you need a copy of Filter Forge installed.
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  #12  
Old 05-26-2006, 05:21 AM
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Doug Nelson Doug Nelson is offline
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Perhaps it might generate demand for the filters if a free read-only version were offered? I mean, otherwise the only potential filter users are also potential filter developers, which might demotivate development.
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  #13  
Old 05-26-2006, 06:15 AM
filterforge filterforge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Nelson
Perhaps it might generate demand for the filters if a free read-only version were offered?
Yes, we've discussed that idea and even tried to do a test implementation -- we wanted Filter Forge to switch to read-only mode after the trial expires. The biggest problem was that everyone can use a screen-capture tool or a PrintScreen key to save the results the filter produces, so we can't actually make it read-only. We tried to distort the results, but that also can be circumvented.

Also, the filters are saved in an open XML format, so anyone can edit it manually, or write a simple generator to simplify the creation process. So, even if we lock the Filter Editor into read-only mode, that won't stop people from makin their own filters.
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  #14  
Old 05-26-2006, 11:52 AM
happysnapper happysnapper is offline
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Two thoughts:

1) put a water mark over a trial version. There are several programs that take this approach already.

2) Screen grabbers are only going to get certain resolution unless they are seriously determined. Perhaps limit the output to VGA res with the proviso that if people use an image on a website the must provide a credit and link to your website. Granted not everyone is going to do that but some will and that's free advertising for you. It also strikes me that all the things that take off big time these days have given some sort of freebee.

Just my two cents worth.

Just reread the postings, I would ask, why would you want to stop people making filters? IMHO That's your life blood. The more filters you have, the more useful your program is, the more popular your program becomes.

Question: how do you make filters to get a free copy without an existing way of doing so? Or is that only for the beta period? If so what is the continuing incentive to develop filters?

And a further two cents :-)

Sorry if I've misunderstood something and good luck with your program.
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  #15  
Old 05-26-2006, 12:08 PM
filterforge filterforge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happysnapper
why would you want to stop people making filters? IMHO That's your life blood. The more filters you have, the more useful your program is, the more popular your program becomes.
Of course we don't want to stop people from making filters -- quite the opposite Under "read-only", I meant "you can create filters but can't apply them" -- I'm just so tired that I can't explain things clearly Our ideal approach would be to make Filter Forge free to create filters, but to require a paid version to apply them -- that's why we offer a free copy to good authors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by happysnapper
Question: how do you make filters to get a free copy without an existing way of doing so? Or is that only for the beta period?
No, this is not a beta-only feature. People can use the free trial version to build and submit their filters -- the trial period will be 90-day long, that should be enough to learn the Editor. Plus, we're thinking about offering an extension of the trial period for every successful filter the user submits. Simply put, if you keep submitting good filters, you won't run out of trial days and will get the free copy eventually.
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  #16  
Old 05-26-2006, 12:54 PM
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Doug Nelson Doug Nelson is offline
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Actually, by read-only I meant you can apply filters but you can't create them. This would create a huge fanbase for the filters, and that would be the incentive for new development. I can't imagine many paying $200-$300 just for the capability of using the filters.
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  #17  
Old 05-26-2006, 01:31 PM
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Craig Walters Craig Walters is offline
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vladimir,

thanks for coming and posting here. we appreciate the personal attention.

i have similar comments to the others. if you're making a filter maker, which i think is great, then one thing i would want is to be able to give those filters to others or to sell them as stand-alone products. in other words, as .8bf's. that is why i would buy a filter maker. but if all end-users have to buy the filter maker in order to use the filters that are already made, then that would put me off a bit.

and that raises another question; if you are going to allow us to make .8bf's with this program that dont need the original program, what, if any commercial restrictions are you putting on the .8bf's so made? i know some programs in the past have tried to license the output files making it so you cant sell the output file unless you pay the original company something. i find this totally unappealing and i refuse to ever use those types of programs. so, i ask this up front. i didnt see anything on the web site about this.

so, my ideal filter maker would allow me to make .8bf files with no restrictions on licensing and no need for those i want to give or sell those 8bf files to buy the filter maker itself.

now, i do understand the whole protecting one's software issue. it wouldnt surprise me to go out to some bit torrent site or warez site and find that your software, even the beta version, already exists out there in a hacked form. i'm afraid that's just the way things are currently. so, you have to decide how strong do you want to make your locks because there's always someone out there that can pick any lock you make. that's a rather sad thing, but nonetheless a reality these days. so, do you want to go the way of some companies where they make the locks so strong that even the legitimate users are hassled or so weak that there are no legitimate users? it's a trick.

i find most folks want to be ethical and that most simple locks will keep the casual shopper from going to extreme means to get a commercial product for free. so, watermarks and limited trial periods or no saves on the outputs tend to keep most from crossing over to the dark side. and like one person said, a watermark is free advertising. heck, i'd even allow the demo version to output .8bf's with a tasteful watermark with your web address on it. that's just good business. stick it up on all the free download sites and let folks get exposure to it and produce filters like crazy....all with your web address on the output files. you cant buy advertising like that and you're getting it for free.

i do appreciate that you are offering an incentive program for those that do make filters and upload them to you. i think that's very smart.

i'll also offer some suggestions in ways you might offer this thing to folks. you have the main filter forge for making filters. good. you also have a demo version. good. but i want to make filters and distribute them as stand alone filters. what if you had a free read program for those that dont want to MAKE filters but just want to USE them? adobe does this quite nicely with acrobat. if you want to MAKE .pdf files you BUY the maker, but if you just want to READ .pdf files you simply get the free reader. that makes sense. this gets their name out there for free to anyone who reads .pdf files. once you see how good pdf files are and start wanting to make them, you buy the writer. so the reader is just a loss-leader for the writer. so, if you had a free reader that made your output filters work, everyone who uses filters can use them for free and as they see how good these are and decide they want to make them, they buy filter forge.

sure, you're always going to get a few nuts and bolts guys that are going to hack the .xml or python files, but most folks wont. in fact, since your filter forge is a 'codeless' filter maker, you're going to attract those who dont want to fool with coding or scripts and they just arent going to bother hacking things.

i know it's a hassle. software companies are always fighting this stuff. how do you make money with something as easily hacked as software. i dont know all the answers. and i do wish you luck. i also signed up for the beta test and hope i'm approved. i've beta tested for several companies over the years and it's always fun to see your ideas go into a product.

and thanks again for posting here.

craig
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  #18  
Old 05-26-2006, 01:46 PM
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Craig Walters Craig Walters is offline
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just checked my email. i'm approved and downloaded the beta. just in time for the weekend thanks, vladimir

craig
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  #19  
Old 05-26-2006, 01:55 PM
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Cameraken Cameraken is offline
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Filter Forge
Vladimir Welcome to Retouch Pro.

Not sure what happened yesterday.
The email I got yesterday was just saying that registration was successful.
The download was not available at this point.
I received another email this morning which was the beta testing approval and contains the Registration Key
The download was then available.
So there is nothing wrong. Just a delay between the two emails.
I’ve downloaded it and installed it.
This looks cool. Looks like a new learning curve this weekend.

Thanks Vladimir and Thanks for the link Doug.

Ken.
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  #20  
Old 05-27-2006, 09:08 AM
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Craig Walters Craig Walters is offline
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well, forget everything i said in my last post. now that i've actually had a chance to LOOK at FF i can see why a few things might be difficult. stand-alone filters could probably be done, but the way they're integrating the output back into the interface makes this a bit tougher.

still, there are two modes here, the user side and the creator side. no reason they have to be bundled together if all you want is the reader side.

craig
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