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Software Photoshop, Lightroom, Paintshop Pro, Painter, etc., and all their various plugins. Of course, you can also discuss all other programs, as well.

Filter Forge

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  #21  
Old 05-27-2006, 09:41 AM
filterforge filterforge is offline
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Craig -- there is an issue about .8bf filters I would like you to consider:

Suppose we have the ability to output .8bfs from Filter Forge. Some person learns that all user-created filters in the Library are legally free to use and distribute.

After that, this person downloads all filters from the Library, and compiles 8bfs of them all.

Since the filters are free to use and distribute, this person bundles the compined 8bfs with a free manager similar to PluginCommander and anonymously uploads this package everywhere -- freeware archives, torrents, forums, everywhere.

And that's it for Filter Forge. Yes, they won't steal the filter creation ability, but since only 1% to 10% of users are going to use the Filter Editor, this won't be a big loss for the 90-99% of users who just want to apply effects, not to create them.

I'm afraid after 3 and a half years of development with 5 full-time programmers we just can't afford that.
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  #22  
Old 05-27-2006, 09:43 AM
filterforge filterforge is offline
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And since filters in Filter Forge use HDRI lighting, we will have to pack all lighting environments into every 8bf, thus increasing its size to at least 12,6 megabytes.

Also, these HDRI images were licensed from Sachform on the terms prohibiting us from distributing their HDRIs anywhere except as a part of Filter Forge.
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  #23  
Old 05-27-2006, 11:06 AM
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Craig Walters Craig Walters is offline
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vladimir,

Quote:
Some person learns that all user-created filters in the Library are legally free to use and distribute.
but that's just it, they are NOT legally free. they could be, under what i was saying, but by default, with no other permissions granted, they are not legally free.

someone made the point earlier that with your current expected pricing, a lot of folks arent going to even try filter forge, especially if they have no interest in making filters. so, $200 to $300 for pre-made filters seems to be a fairly high cost...seemingly. this cost drops PER FILTER with the more filters that are included in the package, obviously. so, i may be wrong here in the assumption that $200 to $300 is a fairly high price. with 100 filters included in the program, that's dropping the per filter price a lot. and that's not even considering the presets. so, ok, i do see where this becomes a very cost efficient program.

still, i think you could make more money and satisfy customer needs better if you had two programs; one, just the reader, filter user one, and two, the full program for user-creator.

and ok, i'll drop the whole .8bf issue. the more i use the program, the more i'm seeing how that isnt going to work very well. still, sometimes it's nice to be able to call up just one simple, quick filter without having to call up a much larger program. compare Deep Paint 2, which works like your program, parent to child, and one simple filter like Cybia's Alphaworks. it's just a lot simpler and faster, especially if you know what that one simple filter is and does.

this also raises another question. if we send in our created filters to you guys, are you going to include them in FF as part of the package?

and, yet another question, let's say i make a filter that ken likes and ken makes a filter that i like, can we exchange these filters between just us two? i havent looked at the files all that much yet, but if you're exporting the finished filter into xml, couldnt ken and i just send each other our .xml files to swap filters with each other?

also, please dont get me wrong on any of this. i think the program is damned good so far. i like it. and i really can see where buying this program makes sense if you're getting a number of pre-made filters plus have the ability to make and alter even more yourself. a lot of my earlier comments were based on not having even seen the program, so forgive me for that; i shld know better than to judge before looking

craig
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  #24  
Old 05-27-2006, 01:26 PM
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Craig Walters Craig Walters is offline
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guys,

despite my seemingly cantankerous requests to vladimir, this is one AMAZING program! i've already made two filters and not just cute texture types. this thing has a LOT of features, an intuitive interface, especially if you've worked with any type of editor before (including graphic editors), and is very much a 'plug'n-play', drag and drop, type editor. but dont let the ease of use fool you. it's got POWER!

not only do you have access to a growing library of filters and not only can you create your own, you can also edit any of the existing ones! so, you see a filter and go, 'boy, that's close to what i wanted, but not quite.'. so, open the editor portion and edit it how you want it and save it back out as a new or updated filter! very slick!

so far i've found no real bugs nor had any crashes at all. i've got some interface issues and of course a growing wish list, but those are minor. the program works with PS, PSP, Elements, and just about any program that uses adobe standard plugins, i would think. i dont know how many versions back you can go in ps or psp before it wouldnt work, but it certainly works in psp 9 and 10 and elements 4 and from other users, ps cs2.

there is a forum for talking to vladimir and reporting bugs and getting help. the documentation is a bit short right now, but like i said, it's pretty intuitive and pretty simple to use. in short, i'm having fun

craig
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  #25  
Old 05-27-2006, 02:08 PM
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byRo byRo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraellin
.... I've got some interface issues ....
I've been using the Forge for a couple of hours....
Like Craig said, no bugs no crashes and a very impressive array features.

BUT

- I am using a screen size of 1024 x 768, which is no way state of the art - but is "state of most folks". I am finding the filter editor screen rather disproportional. The parameter / preview panel occupies about a third of the screen. Opening the components panel another quarter gets used. That means that you can only visualize a small slice of your filter any time.
I intuitively tried to move the borders, but they are fixed.
I wanted to hide the preview so as to be able to vizualize the whole filter, can't do that either (even after setting the thumbnails to minimum).

- In the same vein... Although I understand the lack of horizontal and vertical sliders at the edges as meaning that the filter editor is an infinite field. It is easy to get lost in an infinite field - the "Don't panic" message is very cute (especially for a HHGTTG fan) and it did take me back to the "result" box. OK, maybe it was my fault for just messing around with the boxes and forgetting where I had left the "result".

- I use a 1,5G Athlon, once again nothing special, just average. Even though I use a smaller image, the filter is SLOW. I'm sure that Vladimir and the guys already know that and must be rounding off the corners - but, unfortunately, the fact does need to be registered here. Even when avoiding the 3D'ish stuff it can be quite frustrating waiting for the preview to process.

Overall a very interesting program . I'll be spending a lot more time discovering what can be done.

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  #26  
Old 05-27-2006, 02:18 PM
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Cameraken Cameraken is offline
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It does require Windows XP although I believe they are working on a Mac version expected later this year.

Craig. I agree. I’ve also written (is that the word) some very simple stuff but I can’t see any way to share these without submitting them.
I was expecting to spend this Sunday learning this but I think I’ll be writing filters instead as I think I’ve learnt 80% of it already.

Some things are great and it’s very intuitive but then there is simple stuff missing. I think it’s very much geared to making textures etc
I would have liked to have seen more tools in there. Foe example I can’t make a simple frame because I can’t find a tool to allow me to select just a border area. (I’m playing with offset but I don’t think this will do it). If making frames were possible I think they would have a category for them. And I agree with Rô, I need a bigger screen

There has been a lot of discussion at FM group about FF, however I don’t think they are in direct competition. They both have different uses.

Rô. Have you seen the workaround for the speed issue on the forum? I’m on a 2Gb P4 and I installed Filter Forge x86-SSE2.exe, but it has not made a big difference to my PC.

Ken
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  #27  
Old 05-27-2006, 03:35 PM
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Craig Walters Craig Walters is offline
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i use 1024 x 768 too and dont find this a bother. i simply close the componets panel for more space or drag the main window around as needed. it would be nice to have a zoom on the main window, though, so one could see the whole composition at a go. i could also see having the panels float rather than docked. or, have them minimize.

and ken, though i havent looked specifically for anything like borders or frames, i was wondering if something couldnt be done with the 'patterns'. they currently have a very limited selection of patterns and i was wondering if the end-user could import his/her own patterns for use in this. if that were possible, one could import base frames and borders to be worked with. i think that might be the solution for that. it's not likely that a filter maker itself would give you a whole set of drawing tools for making frames. borders shld be easy enough, though. and i'm also sure they have more things planned. they have 5 coders currently and have been working on this for 3 years. so, i'm sure they're hungry to get launched to get some cash coming in. after that perhaps we'll see some new features added or maybe even some in beta.

are you guys posting in the forums to give feedback? i'm sure they'd like to hear whatever you have to offer.

i've also made my third filter now. this one is quite complex and i'm still refining it and i also found out the limit on controls one can add. lol. i always learn the hard way by poking around. seems the limit is 10.

but this thing really is amazing. it's no wonder they're opening it up to beta. they could have 50 guys doing nothing but making filters and still not tap the full resources available here.

and ken, i think i read from vladimir that they export to .xml files, so it shld be possible to transfer those files around amongst users without uploading to the site. it makes perfect sense to upload them now and take advantage of the offer to get FF for free by making X number of good filters, but in the future i could see not always doing that. maybe vladimir will confirm this.

craig
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  #28  
Old 05-27-2006, 04:06 PM
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Cameraken Cameraken is offline
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I have just uploaded my first filter. A simple pencil sketch.

Craig.
If you wish to try a transfer I have attached it as a zip file. You will need to drop it into
C:\Documents and Settings\Craig\Application Data\Filter Forge\My Filters Folder
The FFXML file is very small (3kb) but I had to zip it to attach it here.


Ken
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File Type: zip Ken Pencil.zip (1.0 KB, 13 views)
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  #29  
Old 05-27-2006, 05:21 PM
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byRo byRo is offline
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Ken, that worked fine - the download, and the filter.

I am returning one for you.

The big advantage that I see in FF (intimate, aren't we? ) over normal filters is that you can leave a lot of flexibility.
If you want any parameter to show up in the "Filter controls" set just slap on a slider. In my case here I added sliders for colour and blending.
The filter is set to multiply the Blue channel but you can use any blending with any channel.

Over FM it does have the advantage of being an awful lot easier to program, though of course it can never have all the flexibility. (Do we use all the flexibility?)

Quote:
It does require Windows XP
I downloaded at work, and there it runs perfectly on Windows 2000.

Quote:
Rô. Have you seen the workaround for the speed issue on the forum? I’m on a 2Gb P4 and I installed Filter Forge x86-SSE2.exe, but it has not made a big difference to my PC.
I'll look into it. Yesterday there was onlty one thread there - now there are 19!

Attached Files
File Type: zip Simple Draganizer.zip (1.3 KB, 20 views)
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  #30  
Old 05-27-2006, 05:27 PM
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Doug Nelson Doug Nelson is offline
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Pix, pls
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