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Software Photoshop, Lightroom, Paintshop Pro, Painter, etc., and all their various plugins. Of course, you can also discuss all other programs, as well.

Best Sharpening Plug-ins

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  #31  
Old 06-10-2011, 04:36 PM
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

It does not know how sharpening has been applied (it has no way of doing so), so when it is time for output sharpening the settings assumes the image has been correctly sharpened - if this was done in lightroom or somewhere else should not matter.
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  #32  
Old 06-10-2011, 06:09 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

So when does it assume "incorrect" sharpening has been applied, and in so doing how does it alter output sharpening?

Andrew is suggesting there is a dynamic in LR's output sharpening relative to it's assessments on what type of sharpening has been done so far. And the assessment criterion being: "correct" or "incorrect" capture sharpening.

I'm trying to determine how the the dynamic is applied. It assumes RAWs are "correctly" sharpened, I assume, if ANY capture sharpening is applied (most getting some by default); and it assumes "correct" for TIFF's and PSD's as a matter of course. So where exactly is the dynamic? it's occurrence seems vastly overstated. And in the presumably few cases it assumes "incorrect" sharpening, how does it adjust output sharpening accordingly? Up or down? Does "incorrect" infer too much or too little? Radius too high or too low? Etcetera.
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  #33  
Old 06-10-2011, 06:21 PM
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

I think you just misunderstood him (although I personally do not have LR so I haven't checked).

The "dynamic" settings he reffered to in LR was that LR will at print (export?) time apply output sharpening depending on what you are outputting for (optimal sharpening depends on paper type, printer type, resolution, etc.).
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  #34  
Old 06-10-2011, 06:41 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

He specifically stated that output sharpening is based on capture sharpening.
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  #35  
Old 06-11-2011, 05:13 AM
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

Why don't you do a simple test for yourself. It will only take you a few minutes. Then you can post your results.
I get the impression there is a misunderstanding regarding whether or not some form of analysis is conducted by the software prior to it applying a sharpening setting.
I have done a simple test with ACR 4.6. When you open a raw file for the first time it automatically sets a 25% level of sharpening. If you open any other file it doesn't automatically set any sharpening. The only "assumption" (and I think it is the use of that word which is perhaps at the centre of the confusion) which is made is that a raw file will have had no sharpening applied, and will probably need some - and that 25% will probably be a fairly useful, safe starting point.
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  #36  
Old 06-11-2011, 09:49 AM
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
My questions are around output sharpening, which you say is based on Capture sharpening: when Lightroom knows what Capture sharpening was applied it does one thing. When it doesn't it does another.
A better way to rephrase this would be to say, when LR conducts output sharpening, its with capture sharpening expected. Its compounded.

Quote:
Theoretically, in both cases it can assume that "correct" sharpening was applied. In the case of RAW files it can assume that any Capture sharpening applied (none, default or custom) was "correct". Ditto in the case of TIFF's/PSD's.
Yes, if the user applies sharpening in Develop, LR 'knows' this of course. It applies this in a specific and preferred processing order (for example after noise reduction).

Quote:
So in what way specifically is it addressing the two situations differently? For instance, for any given output sharpening choice, assuming same size files, is it applying more or less sharpening to TIFF's/PSD's relative to raws?
In terms of the output sharpening, and routines (the settings you ask for in the Print module) its the same. That is, what you ask for in Print is applied to the data however, if you sharpen say a TIFF, outside of LR, its not necessarily applied in the preferred order (what if you apply noise reduction in Develop)? Its not applied to linear encoded data because you did the sharpening in Photoshop. It may not have been conducted in high bit. So while you can apply 'correct' capture sharpening first outside of LR, apply print sharpening in Print and get a perfectly acceptable print, its a bit more iffy.

The closest way to capture sharpen a rendered image in Photoshop but then apply output sharpening in LR would be to use PhotoKit Sharpener for capture sharpening in PS because Adobe implemented those routines for Lightroom.
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  #37  
Old 06-11-2011, 02:13 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

Phew, some clarity:

Regarding how LR treats Output sharpening for Raws vs Rendered images:

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
In terms of the output sharpening, and routines (the settings you ask for in the Print module) its the same.
Thank you!

-----

From Luminous Landscape:

[quote author=digitaldog link=topic=48069.msg401001#msg401001 date=1289314502]
Because you don’t need to IF you did an adequate job of capture sharpening of which the output sharpening is also based upon.
[/quote]

From RetouchPro:

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
LR and ACR use a sharpening workflow based on the Fraser piece. There is Capture Sharpening and Output Sharpening. The Output Sharpening is based on the Capture Sharpening.
No offense, but the language could use some work. Why not just say that LR's Output sharpening is... you know... Output sharpening? (And not Capture/Creative/Output sharpening rolled into one.) I think people can get that - if they don't already assume it - a lot more clearly than saying Output sharpening is "based upon" Capture sharpening.

In LR/ACR Output sharpening is based on your Output Settings, not on Capture sharpening. It expects an already Capture/Creative sharpening image, but it does not alter the Output sharpening based on that Capture sharpening.

Correct?

Last edited by Flashtones; 06-11-2011 at 02:31 PM.
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  #38  
Old 06-11-2011, 08:07 PM
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
No offense, but the language could use some work. Why not just say that LR's Output sharpening is... you know... Output sharpening? (And not Capture/Creative/Output sharpening rolled into one.)
Why said otherwise? LR's output sharpening is output sharpening, but capture sharpening is still part of the full process.

Quote:
I think people can get that - if they don't already assume it - a lot more clearly than saying Output sharpening is "based upon" Capture sharpening.
Because it is. Its an expected process in the workflow. Output sharpening without capture sharpening is suboptimal.

In LR/ACR Output sharpening is based on your Output Settings, not on Capture sharpening.
Correct?[/QUOTE]

No. Its based both. If you apply output sharpening with or without develop sharpening, you get different results.
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  #39  
Old 06-12-2011, 04:33 AM
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Its based both. If you apply output sharpening with or without develop sharpening, you get different results.
What you say is correct, but I just want to point out that in both cases the actual output sharpening that is applied is identical, but you get different results simply because the image without input sharpening doesn't have optimal sharpening.

The confusion was caused by the misunderstanding that the output sharpening "knew" what sharpening settings had been used earlier and adapted to them.
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  #40  
Old 06-12-2011, 09:35 AM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: Best Sharpening Plug-ins

I thought post 22 and 25 were clear:

LR or ACR has no idea nor could it that someone in the past applied sharpening. Or if the camera applied it (which many do).

It makes no assumptions it can't.
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