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Photoshop CS6 New Features

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  #31  
Old 03-26-2012, 09:23 AM
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

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Originally Posted by kav View Post
It would also be nice if raw imagery could be imported in an hdr manner initially at times when it's losing detail off the edges given the nice masking tools in photoshop. This would be a lot easier than the typical method of making multiple passes if the lighting contrast blows out highlights, shadows, or both and they're expected to be within range.
I don’t think so. A raw image (the sensor, camera system) has a fixed dynamic range. Using more bits isn’t going to change that a lick. We use mutliple captures to extend the dynamic range (thus HDR). And you need rendered data to do this so you have to process each raw in ACR/Lightroom or your raw converter before any HDR blending technqiues can be used.

More bits is useful, up to a point. And more bits doesn’t by itself equate to more dynamic range.
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  #32  
Old 03-26-2012, 10:17 AM
kav kav is offline
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
I don’t think so. A raw image (the sensor, camera system) has a fixed dynamic range. Using more bits isn’t going to change that a lick. We use mutliple captures to extend the dynamic range (thus HDR). And you need rendered data to do this so you have to process each raw in ACR/Lightroom or your raw converter before any HDR blending technqiues can be used.

More bits is useful, up to a point. And more bits doesn’t by itself equate to more dynamic range.
I keep trying to think of a good way to write this. Look at linear workflow available in after effects or nuke. I wish something comparable was available in photoshop for still imagery. Regarding hdr, I'm aware of how to create hdr imagery. You know that histograms can extend further than the processed range. 32bpc can address beyond that range and provide a less clunky workflow for comping exposures to grab highlight or deep shadow information compared to highlight/shadow recovery today or processing out the same image multiple times. You'd be surprised how often I encounter this. If we could process out as a 32 bit file that information wouldn't even need to be chopped.

My point was that 32 bpc is used for certain things because it can address a greater range, yet they haven't made all blending modes or tools available at that bit depth. HDR software has been out for at least a decade, so it's not really anything new.
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  #33  
Old 03-26-2012, 10:35 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

I agree with kav. This is exactly the reason why I wish to be able to work in 32 bit mode. The best output regarding highlights you will get from RPP. Image will be little bit noisy but you can fix it later. But what's the point to export 32 bit image if you have to convert it to 16 bit anyway?

This is important for studio photography and 3D renders.

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  #34  
Old 03-26-2012, 11:09 AM
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

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Originally Posted by kav View Post
My point was that 32 bpc is used for certain things because it can address a greater range, yet they haven't made all blending modes or tools available at that bit depth. HDR software has been out for at least a decade, so it's not really anything new.
Bit depth and dynamic range are totally separate! You can have a document in 32 bit that has 4 stops of dynamic range or a document in 8-bit that has 8 stops. A wider histogram, a finer set of tonal values, a gamma corrected or linear capture has zero role on the dynamic range. Dynamic range is a fixed attribute of the capture device.

All a finer set of tonal values does is decide up the data you have into finer steps. It doesn’t add more range any more than an 8 foot long starcase with 25 steps is longer than an 8 foot long starecase with 15 steps. Both are 8 feet long.

This is true for HDR processing and non HDR processing:

http://hdrphotos.info/dynamic-range-and-bit-depth/

32 bit processing is about precision of the values on data that has a fixed dynamic range and 32 bit processing in no way provides more such range.

One byte (8 bits) of computer storage can define any value between 0 and 255. It cannot define the number 256 or any larger number (Or 254.5). For that it requires 2 bytes. Two bytes can hold any integer value from 0 to 65,535.

The number of bits per pixel needed to cover the dynamic range of the sensor with sufficient precision is going to be the same regardless of whether an integer or floating-point format is used to store the data.
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  #35  
Old 03-26-2012, 11:24 AM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

I would suggest to keep the term HDR away as it could be for many people misleading.

We work in 16 bit mode because images contain more informations and we don't get as many artefacts as we would work in 8 bit mode. Logically, images in 32 bit mode will contain even more informations to work with.

We work in higher bit resolution because we need a master file with the maximum amount of informations. When we are happy with our master file we will convert it (in most cases) to 8 bit file and publish it on the web.

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  #36  
Old 03-26-2012, 11:45 AM
kav kav is offline
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Bit depth and dynamic range are totally separate! You can have a document in 32 bit that has 4 stops of dynamic range or a document in 8-bit that has 8 stops. A wider histogram, a finer set of tonal values, a gamma corrected or linear capture has zero role on the dynamic range. Dynamic range is a fixed attribute of the capture device.

All a finer set of tonal values does is decide up the data you have into finer steps. It doesn’t add more range any more than an 8 foot long starcase with 25 steps is longer than an 8 foot long starecase with 15 steps. Both are 8 feet long.

.
I'm trying to think of a better explanation here. Look at a really high contrast image in Camera raw or lightroom. If you move the exposure slider, it might still have information on the ends, yet you would end up making multiple passes if you wished to pull that within range. I guess you could use highlight/shadow recovery but I don't like their effects.

32 bits per channel in photoshop (to a degree), after effects, and nuke uses floating point calculations rather than fixed ones. Go try it out if you don't believe me. Import your image. Change to 32 bpc. Make an exposure adjustment layer of say + 10. Now on top of that layer make another exposure adjustment layer of -10. You'll see the image come back. Try the same thing at 16 bpc. There, I just proved it to you. They don't work the same way. Ask Adobe if you still don't believe me. I'm not just posting incorrect information.

As to what is commonly accepted as hdr coming from multiple frames, yes I'd still like better tools for working with that in photoshop. I don't mean something that looks like a cartoon.

Now as for the linear references, programs like after effects can do quite a lot with non gamma corrected images while using gamma correction much like proof colors in photoshop in that you can view something as it would look in the end with other calculations made before this. It's quite useful, but if I explained all the reasons this would go on for pages.
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  #37  
Old 03-26-2012, 11:47 AM
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

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Originally Posted by creativeretouch View Post
I would suggest to keep the term HDR away as it could be for many people misleading.
Only once we agree that dynamic range and bit depth are separate. More bits does not equal more dynamic range.HDR is simply a way to produce a wider dynamic range though the use of multiple exposures and blending of tones than a single capture can no matter the bit depth.

Quote:
We work in 16 bit mode because images contain more informations and we don't get as many artefacts as we would work in 8 bit mode. Logically, images in 32 bit mode will contain even more informations to work with.
The more is better idea doesn’t wash to a point. The reason we can introduce artifacts as you call them in 8-bit per color data is because as you alter the numeric values, there are always rounding errors. As I said, with a 0-255 range, there is no place for 234.5. If you have a pristine capture in 8-bits per color, more bits will buy you nothing but a bigger file. You will not be editing that data. Go ahead and convert it to 16-bits and look at it on screen or print it. There will be no difference.

Take the 8-bits per color data and apply multiple and aggressive curves or other corrections and due to rounding errors, it might be possible to see banding, in some smoother gradients (sky) that show up on a print. Applying the same edits in 16-bits will not produce enough rounding errors for this to show. There are still rounding errors but there is so much additional bits, the edits are invisible in terms of the data loss.

Keep in mind that:

1. Photoshop calls all images that have more than 8-bits pre color 16-bits. The data might be 10, 12 or 16 bits per channel. There are very, very few real 16-bit capture devices.

2. Photoshop doesn’t even operate in 16-bits but instead 15-bits+1.

3. The folks here who say they need more than 16-bit processing need to illustrate that 16-bit processing is insufficient and that their editing introduces enough rounding errors to be visible anywhere (on-screen, on a print).

Further, the reason 32-bit floating processing is available for HDR (which some want to remove from the conversation), is due to the need of having the ability to deal with a huge set of numeric values and values such as 234.5 or or 32,768.
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  #38  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:00 PM
kav kav is offline
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post

3. The folks here who say they need more than 16-bit processing need to illustrate that 16-bit processing is insufficient and that their editing introduces enough rounding errors to be visible anywhere (on-screen, on a print).

Further, the reason 32-bit floating processing is available for HDR (which some want to remove from the conversation), is due to the need of having the ability to deal with a huge set of numeric values and values such as 234.5 or or 32,768.
You actually just explained it there. There aren't any rounding error issues that are significant within 16 bpc. Raw processing isn't a lossless process though and some things can be clipped in the tiff export that weren't clipped in the raw file. I suggested that 32bpc would be superior for bringing in some of these lost values either via processing multiple times and merging then using layer masking to bring in the values before dropping to 16 bpc would be excellent. For real hdr, better ability to adjust an hdr file with the same tools as you have in 16 bpc would be nice. Just being able to retouch or adjust a spherical hdr image more effectively within photoshop as a single flattened image would be great, but even for non spherical, just having the normal tools available would be good. If you've ever dealt with CG and exr outputs to be composited with still imagery, most of them have a setting for linear which makes retouching easier, and it's typical to output that at 32 bpc with the full range of the render intact.

The kind of stuff I mention is the reason it's there in the first place. I was just saying that they put in that capability, but never really expanded on it.
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  #39  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:14 PM
creativeretouch creativeretouch is offline
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Only once we agree that dynamic range and bit depth are separate. More bits does not equal more dynamic range.HDR is simply a way to produce a wider dynamic range though the use of multiple exposures and blending of tones than a single capture can no matter the bit depth.
Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
The more is better idea doesn’t wash to a point. The reason we can introduce artifacts as you call them in 8-bit per color data is because as you alter the numeric values, there are always rounding errors. As I said, with a 0-255 range, there is no place for 234.5. If you have a pristine capture in 8-bits per color, more bits will buy you nothing but a bigger file. You will not be editing that data. Go ahead and convert it to 16-bits and look at it on screen or print it. There will be no difference.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Take the 8-bits per color data and apply multiple and aggressive curves or other corrections and due to rounding errors, it might be possible to see banding, in some smoother gradients (sky) that show up on a print. Applying the same edits in 16-bits will not produce enough rounding errors for this to show. There are still rounding errors but there is so much additional bits, the edits are invisible in terms of the data loss.
It means that working in 32-bits will produce even less rounding errors then working in 16-bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Keep in mind that:

1. Photoshop calls all images that have more than 8-bits pre color 16-bits. The data might be 10, 12 or 16 bits per channel. There are very, very few real 16-bit capture devices.

2. Photoshop doesn’t even operate in 16-bits but instead 15-bits+1.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
3. The folks here who say they need more than 16-bit processing need to illustrate that 16-bit processing is insufficient and that their editing introduces enough rounding errors to be visible anywhere (on-screen, on a print).
I am talking about highlights (shooting products made from metal, for example) this is a problem with all digital devices. You can spend money for Hasselblad with digital back and you will face this problem anyway. You can only avoid this shooting on film.

Edit: I would expect that 32-bit editing will produce less rounding errors in this area and images will look slightly better.

Imagine that you will take a shot with the sun in the centre of your frame. The white shape will be surrounded with some kind of artefacts. I would say that there will be differences among 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit & film.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Further, the reason 32-bit floating processing is available for HDR (which some want to remove from the conversation), is due to the need of having the ability to deal with a huge set of numeric values and values such as 234.5 or or 32,768.
If you say HDR most people will redirect you to Trey Ratcliff's webpage.

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Last edited by creativeretouch; 03-26-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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  #40  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:19 PM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: Photoshop CS6 New Features

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Originally Posted by kav View Post
You actually just explained it there. There aren't any rounding error issues that are significant within 16 bpc.
Then why would anyone need more?

Quote:
I suggested that 32bpc would be superior for bringing in some of these lost values either via processing multiple times and merging then using layer masking to bring in the values before dropping to 16 bpc would be excellent.
That statement contradicts your first above. And it continues to make the assumption that more bits equates to more tonal data which simply is not the case, at least in terms of ‘lost values’. What lost values? Lost where?

Quote:
For real hdr, better ability to adjust an hdr file with the same tools as you have in 16 bpc would be nice.
And depending on the HDR product you use, is possible today. IOW, you do not have to have 32 bit, floating point math to produce HDR. It depends on the software.

Quote:
If you've ever dealt with CG and exr outputs to be composited with still imagery, most of them have a setting for linear which makes retouching easier, and it's typical to output that at 32 bpc with the full range of the render intact.
Raw data is linear encoded too. And yet there is no issue working in 16-bits. Again, why and where does the gamma encoding call for 32-bit? Adobe raw converters (and just about every raw converter I’ve ever seen) works with linear data in 16-bits.

Quote:
I was just saying that they put in that capability, but never really expanded on it.
Because I submit it isn’t necessary.
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