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What PS can't do?

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  #21  
Old 02-28-2013, 02:51 PM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: What PS can't do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertAsh View Post
Andrew,
What was being asked was "what can plug-ins do that Photoshop cannot do?"
That hasn't been answered with anything but a subjective opinion as yet.

Quote:
The simple answer (to hopefully avoid yet another long detour) is that they can do things like simulate film and create effects more quickly and easily - and with more variety - than most people can do in Photoshop.
Of course you can do this within Photoshop (if I only use a subjective preference on a process used there)! Maybe you can't or don't know how. Being that we're back to a subjective interpretation of a rendering, I can say I can produce a look that mimics (fill in the blank film name), you can say some 3rd party can only do this. Show us the proof! Or just state it's an opinion based on pure subjectivity! Nothing wrong with that, nothing scientific either but everyone is entitled to their opinions. Doesn't mean it can't be done in (fill in the blank software).

Prove that this can't be done in Photoshop. Isn't that the crux of the post?
These 3rd party products have special algorithm's made of fairy dust that isn't available in Photoshop? OK, show us.

Quote:
Whether or not you or I like the simulations or not doesn't matter. What matters is:
  • Do the plug-in customers like what those plug-ins do? In my case, a strong yes.
  • Does using those products make customers' lives easier and do we like the end results?
And the answer based on product sales and industry popularity is --> yes. In my case, a strong yes.
Completely true for Photoshop or Lightroom or ACR or (fill in the blank image editor).

Quote:
I used to shoot Tri-X, Plus-X, HP 5 and other black and white films and I think Nik does a great job. You seem to believe otherwise, that's your subjective opinion and you're entitled to it.
No, I don't have any proof either way. Only your subjective pleasure with a rendering from a product. I'd believe you if you could illustrate the opinion as something factual anyone reading this post could try. You haven't. But I'm awaiting how I could come over to your side and agree with your subjective opinions.

Quote:
If you don't like those products, don't use them. It's as simple as that.
I don't like or dislike them, I do dislike the implication that they do something other's cant without an ounce of proof.

Quote:
That is the main point here, at least my main point, which I felt answered the original post directly, and the original poster seemed to feel that way as well. Genuinely sorry for any inadvertent miscommunication from your perspective.
You did an excellent job of supplying your opinion which is based on something subjective and without any way to qualify the opinion. When you do, you may have more people in your camp. At least those who don't blindly take opinions as fact.
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  #22  
Old 02-28-2013, 02:59 PM
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Re: What PS can't do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
Sorry but I don't buy this 'conversion matches film' idea unless someone can illustrate this scientifically. That would mean shooting the film type, doing a good job scanning the film (which itself has a major effect on the reneging) then taking a digital capture at the same time as the film was shot and processing such the two technologies very closely match.
Andrew, agreed. I have not found info on how Alienskin come up with their film presets, I will continue to look and maybe send them an inquiry as I'm curious. I do know however, that I'm a member of a facebook page of a team who are requesting photos (old and new) shot with different film. They then make presets trying to approximate the film. No, a one mouse click preset won't work on every photo anymore than LR's preset for sharpening portraits will work on every portrait shot, but it can give a good starting point for further adjustments, especially for someone like you who shot film for 40 years. You could easily make the appropriate adjustments either in a plugin or back in LR or PS to dial in the grain and shadows and such to bring the individual photo to where you remember it should be.

I am not knocking LR or PS, love them both, and when I started the thread I didn't expect to find any plugins that could do what they can't. I expected to maybe find a couple that could save a few mouse clicks and a few minutes here or there. What I found after a few hours in several different plugins and then back in LR is that what Robert says is absolutely true.

"Another key point that was made is that ACR and Lightroom alone will not do the job for critical black and white work, especially simulating films, without a lot of effort."

I was surprised to find that, working from the origional pic of the girl in LR I couldn't get the one side of the face crushed and save the eye and skin on the other side. Adjustment brush or gradient tool? Maybe. PS edits with masks and blend modes? Of course. But with just the BW color sliders and curves? No way, and certainly not with one click.
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  #23  
Old 02-28-2013, 03:02 PM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: What PS can't do?

Quote:
"Another key point that was made is that ACR and Lightroom alone will not do the job for critical black and white work, especially simulating films, without a lot of effort."
Until you save this as a preset. Then it's one click to save the initial effort.

Watch George's free video and perhaps send him a raw asking him if he can produce a desired effect. Guy knows what he's doing in LR!
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  #24  
Old 02-28-2013, 03:33 PM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: What PS can't do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfly1 View Post
I was surprised to find that, working from the origional pic of the girl in LR I couldn't get the one side of the face crushed and save the eye and skin on the other side. Adjustment brush or gradient tool? Maybe. PS edits with masks and blend modes? Of course. But with just the BW color sliders and curves? No way, and certainly not with one click.
I'd agree (of course) and perhaps a better thread would have been "what LR/ACR can't do".

You could probably get a good 85-90% there in LR/ACR which would be useful in a raw workflow. You could do a bit of selective work there but you'll probably want to pass the rendered data to Photoshop where, as you point out, you can use masks, layers, blending etc. Just functionality that isn't in a parametric editor.

As to any plug-in discussed here, yes, the images appear to be B&W, there's grain and so forth. Just call that "B&W grainy film look" and I'm OK with that. Call it Tmax pushed 2 stops or NeoPan or TriX, you're just going down a marketing speak rabbit hole. IF someone is calling a preset Tri-X, it better look like Tri-X, not just some image that's got no color and has some grain added.

Here's something else to try in Photoshop. It's a B&W conversion technique my friend Greg Gorman's retoucher came up with. And no, neither call it any kind of film despite Greg’s decades of shooting film then digital with some impressive B&W work (http://www.gormanphotography.com)





Gorman's B&W conversion

1. Open a color Image in Photoshop in either 8 or preferably 16 bit (Photoshop CS).


2. Under the Image menu, choose Mode>Lab.


3. Click (Highlight) the Lightness Channel.


4. Under Image menu, choose Mode>Grayscale (Discard Color Information).


5. Command/Control Click on the Gray Channel (to load the selection).


6. Under the Select Menu, choose Image>Inverse.


7. Under Image menu, choose Mode>RGB Color.


8. In the Adjustment Layers Palette choose Solid Color.


9. Select a color from the Color Picker or from the Swatches Palette (which I

prefer). In this example I've picked a warm brown tone.


10. Your choice of color should be based on the tonal range you wish to see

in your final B&W.


11. Go to your Layers Palette and change your Blending Mode to Multiply. Opacity 30% as a start.


12. Because your Color Fill is on a Layer you may adjust the opacity to dial

back the color to your desire.


13. In addition (IMPORTANT), you may add a Curves or Levels Adjustment to

achieve the desired contrast.


14. Should you wish to change the color of your B&W "Duotone" simply Double

Click the Color Fill and reselect.
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  #25  
Old 02-28-2013, 04:23 PM
RobertAsh RobertAsh is offline
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Re: What PS can't do?

Andrew,

You have your subjective opinion, I have mine. Everyone else does too. I'm not going down yet another rabbit hole of yours -- I don't intend to try to convert you out of your religion LOL

CrazyFly,

Don't pay too much attention to Andrew's long posts when they get philosophical, he gets this way when people have different opinions than his in areas he either knows about or feels he does. Take his and other peoples' advice in stride, consider the resources he and others point you to, and do what works best for you.

Great topic, thanks for bringing it up!
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  #26  
Old 02-28-2013, 04:58 PM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: What PS can't do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertAsh View Post
Andrew,
I don't intend to try to convert you out of your religion LOL
That's IS funny, ironic and a telling statement considering since we started this discussion I've asked you several times to provide fact over faith and you've provided no facts and all faith. Must be the religion of marketing.

Quote:
Don't pay too much attention to Andrew's long posts when they get philosophical, he gets this way when people have different opinions than his in areas he either knows about or feels he does.
What's philosophical about asking how you formed an opinion while asking for a clear, scientific set of steps to understand your POV? The rabbit hole you suggest is simply an excuse to avoid providing complete and compelling data points to your opinion. So yes, I suppose your opinions are faith based. What else have you provided?

Quote:
Take his and other peoples' advice in stride, consider the resources he and others point you to, and do what works best for you.
Of which we now both agree. If only you practiced what you preach!
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  #27  
Old 02-28-2013, 05:01 PM
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crazyfly1 crazyfly1 is offline
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Re: What PS can't do?

I've altered the origional 3 pictures I posted in this thread. I deleted the one that is the preset for pushed 2 stops. Now the 3 are Exposure 4, Mikeyg's, and Silver Efex take on tri-max 400.
BTW if you are interested I started a new thread here. http://www.retouchpro.com/forums/sof...-examples.html

That points to a gallery of about 20 different examples I did of presets from Exposure 4 both color and B&W.
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  #28  
Old 02-28-2013, 05:30 PM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: What PS can't do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertAsh View Post
If you don't like those products, don't use them.
Actually you would be surprised what I may or may not like, or the fact that I've actually tested some of this stuff. Case in point, a video I did LAST MARCH of 2012 on Exposure 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAofQS1sgfQ

Note that I don't suggest that any of the presets with film names have any bearing on reality! Because they don't.
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  #29  
Old 02-28-2013, 06:54 PM
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crazyfly1 crazyfly1 is offline
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Re: What PS can't do?

While we are on the subject. I have a lot of old family photos. A lot of them have this amazing blue cast. I don't have the originals handy (they're in storage) but I'm 99% sure I scanned this from a slide. All of the slides were Kodak.
I've long wondered if this was a particular type of film or if it was cross processed or if it is just the result of fading. That's my brother (gotta love the James Dean thing) and probably shot around 50 years ago give or take 5 years.
Any thoughts?
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  #30  
Old 03-01-2013, 02:45 PM
Shoku Shoku is offline
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Re: What PS can't do?

Photoshop can't enlarge as well as some of the other resizing software, like Perfect Resize.

Perfect B/W also impressed me. I have shot a lot of b/w - tri-X, t-Max, ilford, etc., under a variety of conditions. All exposed and developed for specific requirements by me, and printed by me, from thumbnail sized prints to wall murals, all by hand, using 40 year old enlargers, brand new equipment, or a converted 8x10 camera (for the murals). I was surprised how well the Perfect B/W samples that come with the software mimic the appearance of the film I used to work with.

I like Filter Forge for the quick, custom effects (much quicker than PS).

I also use Postworkshop and Correl Paint for digital painting.
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