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How exactly does Lightroom CC merge DNG files?

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  #11  
Old 05-03-2015, 08:20 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: How exactly does Lightroom CC merge DNG files?

Andy, if what's inside of it is so arcane that even the likes of you and Schewe, etc, barely know what it is, I'm thinking I don't need to know either.

I'm all about getting the work done. If there's indeterminate/minimal benefit to the internals, and negative benefit to the packaging, I'm over it. I'll be sticking with TIFs.

I appreciate the dialog, though. Thanks.
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  #12  
Old 05-04-2015, 09:02 AM
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andrewrodney andrewrodney is offline
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Re: How exactly does Lightroom CC merge DNG files?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
Andy, if what's inside of it is so arcane that even the likes of you and Schewe, etc, barely know what it is, I'm thinking I don't need to know either.
It's not at all arcane! It's linear scene referred data without WB applied. It's not as raw as the original DNG's or the proprietary raws prior to the merge. It's partially processed. DNG doesn't necessarily equal raw! Neither does TIFF. There's nothing arcane about it and in fact, now that you know the differences using HDR/Pano merge upon the original data, it should be even less arcane if you actually think about it.
Quote:
I'll be sticking with TIFs.
TIFF is again just a container for rendered data. Saying you're sticking with TIFF means you're not doing any HDR/Pano merges which is fine with me. The linear scene referred data could just as easily be saved in the TIFF container but it's stored in the DNG container, so what? Makes zero difference.
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  #13  
Old 05-04-2015, 07:44 PM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: How exactly does Lightroom CC merge DNG files?

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Originally Posted by andrewrodney View Post
It's not at all arcane! It's linear scene referred data without WB applied. It's not as raw as the original DNG's or the proprietary raws prior to the merge. It's partially processed. DNG doesn't necessarily equal raw! Neither does TIFF. There's nothing arcane about it and in fact, now that you know the differences using HDR/Pano merge upon the original data, it should be even less arcane if you actually think about it.
I get you. Saying it was a good question for Chris Cox threw me, but I guess you thought I was asking something else.

Quote:
TIFF is again just a container for rendered data. Saying you're sticking with TIFF means you're not doing any HDR/Pano merges which is fine with me. The linear scene referred data could just as easily be saved in the TIFF container but it's stored in the DNG container, so what? Makes zero difference.
I don't expect you or anyone else to care what I do. I simply meant that once I understood a linear DNG to be of limited utility outside of the Adobe ecosystem we didn't have to pursue the details within it ad nauseum.

Listen, don't sweat it. I'm just frustrated with Adobe's raw processing engine and looking for a more elegant workflow that might bridge or transcend other processors. Thought this linear DNG might be it, but it's not. I'll figure something else out.
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  #14  
Old 05-05-2015, 01:23 AM
klev klev is offline
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Re: How exactly does Lightroom CC merge DNG files?

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Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
Listen, don't sweat it. I'm just frustrated with Adobe's raw processing engine and looking for a more elegant workflow that might bridge or transcend other processors. Thought this linear DNG might be it, but it's not. I'll figure something else out.
I've actually been looking at darktable. If I get the time I might even try to contribute to it. It's still a bit unstable on OSX.
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  #15  
Old 05-06-2015, 08:54 AM
Flashtones Flashtones is offline
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Re: How exactly does Lightroom CC merge DNG files?

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Originally Posted by klev View Post
I've actually been looking at darktable. If I get the time I might even try to contribute to it. It's still a bit unstable on OSX.
That would be good of you. I'm just looking at it now, on your recommendation. Pretty rich feature set. I'll certainly give it a spin.
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  #16  
Old 05-07-2015, 03:07 AM
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Doug Nelson Doug Nelson is offline
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Re: How exactly does Lightroom CC merge DNG files?

Mark Fitzgerald forwarded me this link of an interview with Adobe engineer Eric Chan. There are two parts, be sure to click through to part 2. It's the most in-depth information I've seen so far, but I'm still only about 90% clear.

tl;dr: The DNG is rendered pixels, not raw data, but in 16bit floating point so there is more information than in a standard TIF.
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  #17  
Old 05-10-2015, 05:40 PM
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Doug Nelson Doug Nelson is offline
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Re: How exactly does Lightroom CC merge DNG files?

I got a response from Eric Chan, Principle Scientist for Adobe and Lightroom. No real new info, but I thought I'd share:

Hi Doug,

A bit of background (apologies if you're already familiar with this part): Raw files are usually in so-called "mosaic" form. They need to be interpolated (demosaiced) before they are useful for photographic editing.

And then comes all the fun stuff you're familiar with: white balance, exposure, contrast, and all the normal edits one can do with a raw file.

When we merge raw files into a HDR, or panorama, or even a HDR panorama, we need to first interpolate (demosaic) the raw files. Then we do the merge of the interpolated RGB color data. And then we store the results into a DNG file.

The crucial part of this is that your normal Develop adjustments, such as white balance, exposure, contrast, etc. -- have NOT yet been applied. This means that you have full freedom to make these adjustments to the resulting merged DNG file, just like you would with a regular raw file. This is a very important workflow and quality benefit, over previous merge/stitching solutions.

Please let me know if I can help clarify any of this. (I have not yet registered for the forums, but you're welcome to re-post any of the above publicly in the forums, if you wish.)

Cheers,
Eric
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  #18  
Old 05-10-2015, 07:07 PM
klev klev is offline
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Re: How exactly does Lightroom CC merge DNG files?

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Originally Posted by Flashtones View Post
That would be good of you. I'm just looking at it now, on your recommendation. Pretty rich feature set. I'll certainly give it a spin.
They have some people who are obviously very very good at writing clean C code. At least that seems to be the case browsing through their github page. I am planning to look for something small to patch first. These projects don't typically allow new contributors to implement anything cool due to the number of things that could be broken in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Nelson View Post
I got a response from Eric Chan, Principle Scientist for Adobe and Lightroom. No real new info, but I thought I'd share:
Those details are actually in line with what I would have expected. You start off with some form of single channel pixel sequencing, which is specific to the camera model in question. It's always some well defined sequence of the form RGBG in the form of a 2 dimensional array. They have to take that and produce something with 3 channels in a suitable working space to make further adjustments.

I'm not going to claim the stuff is simple. I've been working on a small amount of it myself during free time. It's extremely tedious, and the learning curve is somewhat drastic for lower level operations. I'm less interested in raw processing than I am in improving results on already processed data due to the shear number of images that are encountered in that form via images shot in jpeg form, scans, etc.
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