How Synthetic is Too Synthetic?

[Doug Nelson]

So if I put a poem on a copier, each time I hit "copy" I'm creating a new poem?

My point is that, perhaps, just "making" something isn't necessarily "creating" anything.

[Racc Iria]

I guess it depends on how granular you want to get and how you define "create."

Each time you hit the copy button, the copy machine has a little less toner, incurs more wear and tear, etc. which may very very subtlely change the phyical properties of the medium the poem is on, which in some small way may affect the experience of the person reading the poem.

Does that alter the meaning of the poem? Technically, possibly if the words become hard to read or something, but probably not. But the question is if we make 100 copies of the poem do we have 100 unique poems? And, in a way, I think so.

First, we have the subtle differences in the physical medium. I think we can agree to that. Differences in each piece of paper, toner level in the machine, moisture, etc.

Second, we have the idea that is the poem itself. Namly the meaning and interpretation of the words themselves, despite their physical appearance.

Now, here are the two simplest scenarios as I see it. With 100 copies of the poem, either 100 different people will read and interpret it, or on the other extreme, one person will read and examine all 100 copies.

If 100 different people read it, the ideas are filtered throught their own experiences and ideas and will mean something different to each of them, so you'd have 100 different poems as the idea that makes up the original poem is reinvented and filtered for each person.

Now let's say one person reads all 100 copies. The first time you read it, the poem will have certain meaning and call up certain imagery custom to that person. When the person reads the second copy of that poem, they are no longer the same person, because time has passed and they've had new experiences (reading and experiencing the first reading of the poem). So, this time around, the poem means something different to the reader. By the time they read the 100th copy of the poem, they may have turned out to hate the thing, which they loved when they started. Or, they may come to love it even more, or somewhere in between. Either way, each copy of the peom and its idea will have a subtlely different effect on the person. And it could therefore be argued that you'd still have 100 different poems since each copy caused a gradation of change and experience within the reader.

That's getting really nitpicky, but it's a valid argument. I had a similar one once with an old English professor of mine back in college.

[Doug Nelson]

Did you hand in a photocopy of a poem?

[Doug Nelson]

Here's something that just happens to be hitting the blog rounds today:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kicksta...7600262869570/

Did the arsonist "create" the new sculpture? Either way, I suspect he didn't intend to. Or, in finding it, did the photographer (for the sake of this discussion, not counting the photo "record" he made of it)?

[Doug Nelson]

I found this to be delightful. Marcel Duchamp (the father of "found art") actually did create his subjects and only claimed he found them. This was discovered too late though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Found_art

[Racc Iria]

Originally Posted by Doug Nelson

Did you hand in a photocopy of a poem?

No. We weren't talking specifically about poetry, but the conversation was very similar.

Originally Posted by Doug Nelson

Did the arsonist "create" the new sculpture? Either way, I suspect he didn't intend to. Or, in finding it, did the photographer (for the sake of this discussion, not counting the photo "record" he made of it)?

Yes to both. The photographer because he embued it with meaning leading him to want to record it as we've discussed. And with the arsonist the "sculpture" didn't exist in that state before his actions and afterward it did. But nobody observed it in such a way until the photographer came along. But, that starts to get into quantum mechanics and collapsing probability wavefronts like in the "If a tree falls in the forest..." scenario.

In light of that wikipedia article I'd classify the melted keyboard "sculpture" as "Inadvertantly Found Art."

[Doug Nelson]

So I guess if my making lunch is creatively equivalent to Michaelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel, we need a new word for "create".

[Racc Iria]

Well, I'd say that the mechanism by which we create something physical from an idea or thought would be the same. However, depending on what you want to create, different knowledge or skills may be necessary. And the value of what is created is subject to the complexities of human society.

I've seen the Sistine Chapel with my own eyes. It's breath-taking. When you're standing there beneath it, there is no doubt that you are in the presence of one of the greatest creative works to come out of mankind. Yet, if I were about to die of starvation I would probably think your lunch much more valuable to me.

Works of creation can be tiny or gigantic in scale and percieved value. However, I still think that mysterious "spark" that allows us to form an idea and turn it into physical reality is exactly the same at its core regardless of what's being created.

[Racc Iria]

And we do have another word for "create..." it's "made." You don't really go around saying you "created lunch," but rather you "made lunch."

[Doug Nelson]

That was my opening argument that you've taken the opposite side of for two pages. You can't have it both ways. If the 52nd and 53rd consecutive photocopies are both unique creations, so was my lunch.

I'm thinking of creating an Ikea bookcase tonight, but I'll probably end up just creating some television show to watch. Scrubs is a repeat, I created the season finale last week

[Racc Iria]

Originally Posted by Doug Nelson

That was my opening argument that you've taken the opposite side of for two pages. You can't have it both ways. If the 52nd and 53rd consecutive photocopies are both unique creations, so was my lunch.

I'm thinking of creating an Ikea bookcase tonight, but I'll probably end up just creating some television show to watch. Scrubs is a repeat, I created the season finale last week

Yes, you can have it both ways. I have been arguing the opposite side. I still stand by it. But, I also said it depends on how granular you want to get.

On the "macro" level, you are right... there are levels of distinction that we humans give to created works. It's that percieved value again. It's human nature.

On the "micro" level, though, that certain "spark" of something that allows us as humans to create anything (be it an idea or the Sistine Chapel) IS exactly the same. And that's where the "miracle" lies.

Think about it. When you make your lunch, you're taking pre-existing elements and combining them and processing them into a dirivitive form... your lunch... as you envisioned it. Michaelangelo did exactly the same thing with the Sistine Chapel. He took pre-existing plant elements and reformed them into pigment and paint. He took pre-existing animal hair and pieces of wood and recombined them into brushes. He then used those elements to bring his idea to reality, just as you did with your lunch. The only question remains... which is more valuable? It all depends on who you ask and their circumstances. The core creative process is the same.

As for the copies of the poem... on the macro level people would tend to say each copy is the same. Again, human nature. Makes things easier to deal with. But, on the micro level, all those copies are unique as discussed earlier. The same goes for your bookcase and episodes of Scrubs. On your macro level, they are considered the same, but on the micro level they are unique. They can't exist otherwise.


And Doug... I have to say this is the most engaging conversation I've had in a long time. I don't know about you, but I've really enjoyed it.

[Doug Nelson]

If creativity is as ubiquitous as the air that we breathe, then like the air that we breathe it is valueless. Air only becomes valuable when the supply is limited. I value creativity, so there must be a limited supply of it.

[arphot]

Well, concerning the original. I played with Apophysis but only briefly. It seemed that there were a bit more controls than I used. It's a generator. Given a few variables, it creates an image. Someone (probably many) on dA does this often. Some are more enjoyable than others. It's like "throwing paint" art. Sometimes it looks good and sometimes not. But, I digress. Although you were behind the "controls", I don't find this to be something personally created vs some predetermined parameters combined to result in a final output. Now, if you know what you're doing and actually strive and succeed in making something that you set out to do, then yes . . .you created.

[Racc Iria]

Originally Posted by Doug Nelson

If creativity is as ubiquitous as the air that we breathe, then like the air that we breathe it is valueless. Air only becomes valuable when the supply is limited. I value creativity, so there must be a limited supply of it.

And that's exactly why the creativity involved in doing mundane things like making lunch doesn't impress us, as humans, much. The miracle of "creation" is lost on us because it's too hard to see, and way too difficult to wrap our minds around in any satisfying way. So, to deal with it, we give creation a perceived value. A great work of art or literature is apparently worth more to us, as humans, than what we made for lunch. It's easier to see the effort and talent that went into it. And so creativity, like air, is taken for granted... until it's gone. Then we realize how desperately we need it.

Air is so plentiful that most of the time we don't even notice it's there. But without it, we die. It's the same with creativity. Especially creativity at the micro level. Imagine if you were unable to act on your thoughts and turn your ideas into reality. You couldn't create/make your lunch let alone paint a masterpiece. And so, you would die, and not only from boredom. You would be unable to sustain your existence.

So, creativity is just as crucial to our survival as the air we breathe and it's so plentiful that it's taken for granted and largely ignored... until we're cut off from it and we learn its true value.

[Racc Iria]

Originally Posted by arphot

Although you were behind the "controls", I don't find this to be something personally created vs some predetermined parameters combined to result in a final output. Now, if you know what you're doing and actually strive and succeed in making something that you set out to do, then yes . . .you created.

And that's been a big part of this discussion. You describe two instances of creativity. One as being merely an "accident" if you will just inputting random values to see what happens. And number two as having an intent that you strive to accomplish using the same means.

Number two you valued as a creative work because of the intent involved, but number one you did not. Though, both times, the same creative process was at work. Again... perceived value.