RetouchPRO Sponsorship (trial balloon)

[Robt]

I've now read all the above. It seems to me that maybe Doug needs to be looking at RP as a business. But is that what he wants? I bet not.

I am not a pro in any sence of the photog/graphics world. I visit regularly four sites for my Photoshop fix. They are Napp=$99/yr, dpreview+0/yr,Photoshoptechnicques=0/yr,and here. At some level I find all useful but this is were the fun is.

I go screw up the capture on an image that I really want but don't know how to fix. I post in the retouch section and get told how to fix it. Now I wonder how to play with it and what could be done. another section post in Photo-Art of the 'fixed' image and I not only see what is possible but am wowed off my feet by the things people here do to my original image but they TEACH ME how to do it too.

I want to join this site (or should it be sight) because it has done more for me than any other. I find it, like others, intimidating because most sites have only a relative few of their members doing all the talking so you are, of course, put off for fear you will come off as depriving some village of their idiot. I must say that no one here has ever done that to me but... I fear.

As a busssinessman I would like to set down and figure a budget and form a business plan then make a proposal to all of us. I think this has been a labor of love and so that won't happen. Should it be desired, I'll be there when asked.

I don't know what is the best way but I want something as open and free-in the sence the present site is, for without free acess how do you get new members? NAPP did it with a poor site and a fair magizine, do we need another print magizine? We got to find a way to get the bucks without losing the newbies 'cause they are the future.

I sent an email to Doug a month or so ago saying I would help out with $ but I didn't want to go thru Amazon. I still don't. That remains a hang-up for me.

Mean while, $600 isn't all that much to tide things over and I'll send a part as soon as I find out where; who'll help?

Robert Collins
Seattle

P.S. Doug Re: Your post above at the top of pg.2: Maybe you should look at how the post we are now in is posted.It took me three or four days to find it. How was I to know that you could/would post off the base forum?

[Ed_L]

Originally Posted by Robt

Mean while, $600 isn't all that much to tide things over and I'll send a part as soon as I find out where; who'll help?
Robert Collins
Seattle

Several of us are putting money into supporting this site, and have been. In my case, donations are not high $ amounts, but they are always there when we have a fund raising drive. There are others who want to use the site, but do not want to even put in a few $. That's why I think a mandatory donation might be a good idea for people who want to use the site. If there is to be a sponsorship, and some don't want to opt for it, they should at least give a donation. Even though some people don't have much in expendable funds, I think everyone could afford at least something. Just think....at $10.00 per donation, it wouldn't take too many contributors to pay the bills.

Ed

[G. Couch]

Originally Posted by Doug Nelson

If we were any more streamlined we wouldn't exist at all

Well, I suppose streamlining does not have to mean cutting things...just organizing them in a better manner perhaps. I'd like to see the many aspects of the site better integrated at some point...that's more an issue of money, and programming than anything. It would be nice to have a dynamic frontpage (PHP) that integrates articles, forum posts, user settings, etc... but that's still a ways off I guess...I have not kept track of vBulletins plans for some kind CMS software...and even with such software,it would probably require a knowledgable programmer to help customize it for RetouchPRo.


One idea came to mind for something only "sponsor members" would would have access to...articles written by pros. This would require RetouchPro to become a bit of an online publishing company (you would have to solicit and pay for such articles...just like any professional e-zine) but it would give you some exclusive content that a great many folks would probably be willing to pay for.

[Doug Nelson]

Articles, touring classes and trade events, in-person certification, custom software (both web and desktop), trade association, group buying discounts, job placement, multimedia and printed content, all these and more have been part of my dream since before I put up the first single webpage.

But none of it will happen without some sort of initial toe-hold.

[roger_ele]

I tend to be a little dense sometimes on these kind of things, but ...

But none of it will happen without some sort of initial toe-hold.

what would constitute a 'toe-hold'?

On a seperate note I would like to say I think all ideas put forward have been great - what is done might just depend on what the goals are, which brings us back to the toe hold question ...

Roger

edited for clarification

[Xaran]

Originally Posted by Doug Nelson

Articles, touring classes and trade events, in-person certification, custom software (both web and desktop), trade association, group buying discounts, job placement, multimedia and printed content, all these and more have been part of my dream since before I put up the first single webpage.

But none of it will happen without some sort of initial toe-hold.

Unfortunately many of these would exclude the international community - unless your planning to travel the world Doug.

Suggestion: Any donations paid from a certain date be taken off of any subscription that is eventually agreed - that way you can start getting some funds in without so much pressure to decide the way forward.

Suggestion: If you do go for a fixed subscription you need to keep enough of the site 'free' to tempt the newcomers, but also have enough that is subscriber only to encourage the subscription, possibly the tutorials and archives.

Christine

[Doug Nelson]

A toe-hold in this case being a degree of financial support beyond simply keeping the lights on. Paying authors or programmers or renting venues or hiring printers or anything else that has been suggested requires significant funding in advance.

So we're in a catch-22 situation. No new services without funding, no funding without new services. Which is why I came up with the sponsorship idea, as it uses resources we already have available to generate revenue that can then be used to pay for other services, which would then create more sponsorships, which would pay for even more services, etc.

If it's simply my analogy that confused you, to climb a mountain you first need something to push off on (the toe-hold).

[Doug Nelson]

Somewhere a misunderstanding was introduced into this thread. If we did go with sponsorships, nothing at all would change for non-sponsoring members. Nothing, not even the introduction of the occasional new feature. I thought I said that in the first post.

Non-sponsors would not notice one tiny difference (except possibly more new members).

Sponsorship would be for those who make money via retouching and restoration. Those that do it simply for the enjoyment or for friends and family would still have every resource here they currently enjoy. Plus the inevitable leak-over of resources from the professional area.

[billglaw]

In order to keep a site growing all users should consider support. On the photo.net site they solicit sponsors and indicate them with symbol after their user name. There are other small perks and regular feedback to submissions. I believe that this site, RP, is very useful to anyone wanting to improve their image manipulation skills. A contest may be OK. Also consider giving recognition to consistently high quality of submissions.

[Vikki]

Can you elaborate on this?

Sponsorship would be for those who make money via retouching and restoration.

[Doug Nelson]

Just that the new features exclusive to sponsors would attempt to focus on adding value for those who restore and retouch as a business (or who aspire to same). This is unique (as far as I can tell) and has no other retouching site to compare it to. However, many sites in other fields have general and pro versions.

My description might seem a bit abstract at this point, but I'm positive with enough initial interest that part would grow at least as fast as RP already has.

Just think "professional" (meaning in the business of retouching) when imagining potential features. This is not to be elitist, but rather to have features of tangible value to those who need them but no interest for those who restore or retouch for a hobby. New features of general interest would be made available to everyone.

I've already mentioned the competitions which would provide professional credibility to a website or brochure. Other potential services might be a professional directory where a client could find a retoucher close to them (or based on other criteria). Once a base was built up I could also see public-awareness activities to promote restoration and retouching in general.

[Doug Nelson]

I'm going to do something like this eventually, so feel free to continue leaving feedback in this thread.

But I'm not going to do it in the next few months, so we'll stick with the donation model for the time being.

[Ed_L]

See this thread if you don't know how to donate, and want to do so.

Ed

[Jim Conway]

Doug - I think I've said this privately before - a RetouchPro Association (open to all who want to aspire to be better at this) complete with ID card - a sign for your wall or portfolio and a low cost "fee" for joining and a coffee mug could solve the money problem. Braggin rights included! :-)

Langa lists and others use a system of perks that are nothing more than site blocking to some portions of the site - in this case you might want to limit the challenges or the Salon to members only, etc. etc. take your pick.

One that I think is a bad idea is "a RetouchPRO Certification of some sort" . That is tearing apart groups like the AIC (Amer Institute of Conservators) - simple reason is who is qualified to judge and who elected them as God? Some of us in that group have felt that our reputation with big name clients should carry as much weight as the opinion of someone that lands a job as a professor in a big name Eastern College. Many simply stopped supporting them. "Certification" in this case created the idea (right or wrong) that the real interest is in cutting people out. Creating an exclusive insiders circle (for purposes of obtaining grants?) rather than having a true association of professionals. I think you get the idea - "judging qualifications" can turn into an explosive issue and create hard feelings that cuts off the money rather than helping in any way.

If you go way way back - to the roots of the Photographer's Association (PAofA) with Charles Abel, it was much like this group only it centered around a magazine instead of a web site but he welcomed contributions from all and as he grew, paid a few cents to pro writers to compensate them for their time and brought the group up with an "educational approach" much the same as you are doing today.

My suggestion - start Association Membership at $30 to 40 bucks a year - only reason for doing so is that would put you in the same range as low cost software and most others offering - so the question is, if you could get $39.50 a year from about 60% of the people here - how far would that go toward solving the problem of financing the present site and giving you money to grow it? Apply for non-profit status then you too can qualify for bigger donations!

Jim Conway
Timemark Photo Conservators
A Very Senior member!!!
(should be Gold stars after the Senior classification when you pass 75)

[Doug Nelson]

I agree about the certification.

I've not given up on the rest, just put it on the back burner for awhile.

[Leah]

I missed all of this as the discussion happened while I was on vacation.

In my case, I donate to RP. I made my first donation fairly shortly after I'd joined, had used some of the techniques, posted to a couple of the challenges, and thought "this place is great". I've made other donations since then.

Had your sponsorship scheme been in place I wouldn't have donated anything. I would have got here, used some of the techniques, posted to a couple of the challenges, thought "this place is great", checked out the sponsorship benefits and decided that they weren't things I was bothered about -- and because you had the sponsorship system wouldn't have felt any obligation to donate money either. Also I have a twitchy reaction to "paid for" sites and virtually never take out a paid membership, while I have donated to several.

Is the amount of money you'd get in in sponsorship payments actually more than the amount you'd lose from people like me (I can't be the only one who thinks that way, surely)? My gut feeling, at the moment, is "no".

[slipchuck]

since the majority of people who use this site work with adobe photoshop...would it be an idea to contact them and see what kind of support you can get?
I think if adobe knew what kind of high quality work goes into this site maybe they can sponsor us?

another idea that came in mind is to invite some high profile companies to post some photographs that need retouched, manipulated etc.
let all take a crack at it and the company chooses the best result and that person hopefully could get a monitary payment for there work and or a certificate from that company to take with you to job interviews etc.
Of course the company would use the edited photograph as reward for the payment they awarded

just some ideas. what do others think?

slipchuck