RetouchPRO Sponsorship (trial balloon)

[Doug Nelson]

This is an idea I've been toying with for some time, but I've been hesitant to put in action (fear of backfiring, etc.).

Here's the idea:
Instead of donations, there would be an annual sponsorship fee. This would not be a donation (though it would still pay for the things donations do now), since you'd get something in return.

Some things I'm considering in return for sponsorship:

• "Sponsor" would become a new user title
• Higher upload limit in the Member Gallery
• Participation in new monthly contests

This last item would be probably the biggest departure for RP. It would be a for-real monthly contest with an actual declared "Winner". This is less trivial than it might sound, since "Winner of the RetouchPRO February 2005 Restoration Contest" could go some way towards building a reputation. It could be used on your website or resume.

As yet undetermined:

• How much per year this would cost (though it is already certain that there cannot be different "levels" of sponsorship)
• How much additional Member Gallery space would be made available
• Other features and/or priveledges

One thing that I have decided is (if this gets launched at all) that nothing (repeat, NOTHING) that is currently available would be changed for anyone, including non-sponsor members.

Please give your comments, feedback, suggestions, yea, nay, etc. I'd need to be confident of at least 20-30 sponsorships out of the gate to even consider this. How much would this be worth? How much Gallery space would be fair? What other items might be useful? Do you think "RetouchPRO Contest Winner" would help get you business?

[Xaran]

I like the idea of a fixed fee - with donations I am always left wondering if I gave enough. As for the gallery space - more is a definite vote getter 5Mb or even 10Mb would be about right in my opinion.

I'd be ok with whatever you decide for the fee, I'm sure you would fix a fair price.

Christine

[Ed_L]

Originally Posted by Doug Nelson

Some things I'm considering in return for sponsorship:

• "Sponsor" would become a new user title
• Higher upload limit in the Member Gallery
• Participation in new monthly contests

Here's my two pennies:
None of the things listed would make me become a sponsor. Don't get me wrong....I've been a supporter of this site since it's earliest days, and I expect to continue to be. Surely this site has been a goldmine for many people. I wonder if it might be an option to give new people a free trial period of a week or two, then they must make a contribution if they want to continue using the site. I think you would probably pull in more $ if everyone gave a small amount rather than having 20 -30 sponsors at a higher per member donation. "Sponsorship" kind of scares me because some of us are more able (or willing) to give larger amounts, but required donations (any amount), at certain intervals might appear more appealing to many. I know part of my meager donations go to provide things for the "artistic side", which doesn't really interest me. But that's OK with me. If you do opt for sponsorship, would it still be appropriate to have periodic donation threads? I think the answer to this is yes, but you'll have to make that decision.

Ed

[kiska]

A sponsorship type fee is reasonable, i think. It was stated that what is now available would continue to be so. NAPP charges $99/year, which includes a magazine every two months and various discounts. Hopefully, a fee would be something less than this.
However, this could lead to a 'class system' of sorts in some people's minds. Sponsors might feel a bit privileged and others perhaps a bit intimidated.
Lots to think about.
kiska
BTW, This 'Senior' member business kinda rubs me the wrong way. This ain't the AARP, is it???

[Ed_L]

Originally Posted by kiska

BTW, This 'Senior' member business kinda rubs me the wrong way. This ain't the AARP, is it???

In my case, it isn't far from that.

Doug,
I seem to remember something being said about the bills coming due again in June. Is this right? If so, maybe we should start another fund raising campaign to tide us over until you can make up your mind how the future will look. Let us know if we need to get one going now. This *is* June!

Ed

[W. Rose]

Doug,
I am retired and have been using this site for some time now, and like someone else mentioned, it is a gold mine for me also. I feel badly that i have not contributed. But i do intend to start doing my share and whatever you deside will be fine with me. Because of all of the wonderful people here it has enriched my daily living. I would like to mention all of the names but they are to numerous. A few that have helped me directly, Flora and Vikky, thank you so very much and you Doug for giving us something that is so worthwhile to continued. I hope i haven't talked to much here.
You can expect my contribution in a couple of weeks when i get my retirement check and then each month thereafter.
And God Bless All of you members
Wayne

[DannyRaphael]

Kiska: Get over it. You're just having a "senior moment."

- - - - -

Doug:

While a little competition can be motivator to improve skills (and try a little harder), one limitation of a monthly event is only 12 winners/year. Good for the winners, potentially discouraging for other participants.

To supplement this activity consider developing/offering a RetouchPRO Certification of some sort, where sponsored members would be eligible to complete (at their own pace) a number of non-trivial exercises demonstrating mastery of various "pro" techniques. Perhaps the basis of the exercises could ones contained in the Restoration and Retouching book. If you think about it, if one masters all the skills in that book, that would be saying something.

Have exercise results critiqued by qualified/respected folks such as yourself, Flora, Jak, Vikki, etc. Not a rubberstamp approval type of thing. Be tough. If a submitted exercise is high quality, then onto the next one. If quality is insufficient, return it with some pointers and the member can try again until he gets it right.

Have a special thread that only Doug can update, where member names, dates of certification are posted as "proof" of completion.

I'm rambling again... What else is new?

~Danny~

[Ed_L]

Keep rambling, Danny. Excellent idea!

Ed

[Jeff L]

I made a New Years resolution that I would not ever again donate to another internet photo site.

While reading this thread it came to me that this isn't your run of the mill photo site. I know....understatement of the year, but it is true. I have learned quite a bit from this site since I wandered in. That is more than I can say about any of the sites I donated to.

This site is a goldmine of information and in my opinion, one of the best. If there is anything I could do to help keep the site running smoothly I wouldn't hesitate.
The idea of going through the Retouch & Restoration book is a great idea! I just have to get off my butt and get the new edition

As far as extra gallery space goes. I have my own space for that and update it on a regular basis, so that doesn't affect me as a citizen. And when I really think about it...you really wouldn't have to add anything to entice me to help out.

This site is worth it.

[Doug Nelson]

The server bill for next year is eminent, which is the reason I posted this now. I didn't want people to donate if this plan is launched.

The idea of the contests is not to improve skills, that is served well enough by the Challenges. The idea is to have something concrete to help those trying to earn money (remember, this isn't RetouchAM). And yes, to attract more highest-level users. And contests more frequent than monthly would be worthless, although there could be multiple types of contests, just as there are multiple Challenges. Again, it's for the professional members, and if winners are common there is no value to being a winner.

As for certification, that's been on my mind since before I started RP, but I detest bogus certifications, and have yet to figure a way where I personally could certify someone I've never seen in person. I'm not going to risk my own reputation vouching for the skills of someone that could be submitting someone else's work.

The primary reasoning behind the sponsorship is that it would be a way for those that make money off RP to pay the expenses of RP. So I'm fine with non-professionals not seeing any reason to sponsor.

[Andrew]

I'm open to any suggestions! Each time I visit this site I wonder why I don't enter more often. I suspect its because I'm either retouching photos or goofing off. This place has been a valuable resource for me when I run across something that I've forgotten how to do or never knew in the first place. Would I take advantage of a contest? I like the idea but hoo nose.

I would support any reasonable moolah asked for!

I suspect it would take me some years to win a contest after seeing the splendid work around here but then again I'm my own worst critic. Photoshop has been my passion since I discovered it. Seldom a day goes by that I wonder how I ever used an air brush!

Blah blah. blah .. Another geezer rambles!

Andrew

[winwintoo]

I see that I'm listed as a "senior" member - I'm old and I've been around a long time, but don't look to me as an expert!

I found RetouchPRO soon after it launched and soon after I started using PhotoShop. I made some friends here and learned enough about PhotoShop to make it very interesting for me, I know enough about it to use it in many ways, but what I know is a drop in the bucket compared to what there is to know.

I read the new posts on this forum daily as a way of keeping in touch and have posted enough that the vBulletin software has bumped me to *senior* status. When I need help with a restoration, or inspiration, I know where to look. This is without a doubt the best community of Photo professionals and amateurs on the web.

Doug is to be commended for allowing RetouchPRO to grow into what the community wants it to be while quietly guiding it along and never imposing his will on the majority. The bills do need to be paid though and sponsorship would be one way of getting that done.

If it is decided that sponsorship is the way to go, count me in. But, there needs to be a way to designate me as a batboy, and people like Flora (and others too numerous to mention) as MVPs.

Margaret

[DannyRaphael]

Margaret:

Wouldn't you prefer to be a batgirl over a batboy?

I share your feelings about Doug's steady, but not heavy-handed, guidance, the site in general, our membership and the personnal commitment to support it no matter what Doug decides.

~Danny~

[winwintoo]

Originally Posted by DannyRaphael

Margaret:

Wouldn't you prefer to be a batgirl over a batboy?

~Danny~

Maybe I've reached a stage in life where gender no longer matters

Margaret

[jch71566]

Doug,

I think that I would support the site with a reasonable yearly sponsorship.

I would like to touch further on Danny's certification idea, though. I understand your concerns with bogus certifications and the anonymity of the web-medium. However, instead of a certification of completion of some course material, perhaps you could expand on the monthly challenge winner idea.

Certainly you could, and probably should, announce the winner -- this is a very special credential. However, the remainder of the entrys should be eligible for something. Perhaps you could use a star system: JCH71566 is ranked as a 4-star photo-art contestant at RetouchPRO. Perhaps you could give a certificate of completion for participating -AND- meeting the criteria of the contest: JCH71566 has successfully completed 7 manipulation contests at RetouchPRO.

I dunno, but I think the idea deserves some thought.

-Jeff

[Doug Nelson]

I think the poor turnout for this specific thread gives me most of my answer. I'll need to make up my mind soon, since there's over $600 in site bills waiting for me in the next 3 months.

As for handing everyone a prize just for trying, that undermines the concept of any sort of winner, removing any incentive to try. But there's nothing keeping anyone from simply bragging about being a "RetouchPRO Sponsor". Depending on the number of entries, I could see eventually spreading it out to a first and second runner-up, but that would be down the line.

Think about it from a client's point of view. What could RP offer a retoucher that might impress a potential client? Would they be impressed that the retoucher has successfully entered some contests? I don't know about you, but I'd not only be unimpressed, but would actually get a negative impression from that. Would you rather eat some chili that was successfully entered in the Texas Cook-Off, or some that won it?

[Duv]

Doug. I know the overall expenses to run something like RetouchPro has got to be a hell of a lot more than 600 bucks. Sounds to me that your ideas should be floated and inputed over the next year without the immediate financial concerns.
I'm submitting my annual donation of $50. I'll cover that by cutting down on my toilet paper usage each day. To cover the 600 that's just another 11 donations of $50 (that's less than a buck a week). Let's make it happen folks!

Cheers
Dave

[kiska]

I donated $50 a couple of months ago. Sounds like a good and fair amount.
kiska

[Vikki]

In reply to Doug mentioning the lack of contributions to this thread:
I've been thinking about your question and couldn't come up with an answer or a suggestion (perhaps others are are still pondering too).
I'm just going to brainstorm here, and you can decide if there's anything worthwhile.

Regarding incentives: I've been trying to think of something that would "entice" me to purchase a membership. So far, all I've come up with is this: Honest and useful critiques, by one's peers. I'd like to have a voting system that critiques challenge/contest entries. It could be broken down into elements. Sort of like the Miss America contests. So many points for "effort", "technique", "creativity", "skill", etc. Points for different categories would allow "newbies" to rack up some points for their work, even if it wasn't the actual "winner". I'd like to go all out and add the ability to subtract points for similar items (not following instructions, taking too many artistic liberties, etc.) One MUST be a paying member to vote or submit entries for voting. A quick and easy method of voting might encourage members to provide some feedback, when they might not have the time or inclination to "comment" on every image.
I'm guessing that my idea is beyond the capabilities of the current software, but I was "brainstorming".....

Regarding your initial ideas:
"Sponsor" would become a new user title: I'd rather have a lot of gold stars next to my name
Higher upload limit in the Member Gallery: maybe, but I'm not happy with the way the gallery works now. It's like it has a mind of it's own. Maybe it's me, I just can't get it to do what I want.
Participation in new monthly contests: I like this one the best, although if the same people are always winning, the participants will likely dwindle (and therefore payments would too). Although, if a point system were used (as mentioned above) it might work.

I just had another idea. This would be an alternative to paid membership, and goes back to the donation method. Because I often forget about making a contribution, I was thinking that one specific challenge could be named the "Donation" challenge. In order to participate, members must make some sort of contribution. There doesn't have to be a winner. It would also be a way to acknowledge those that do make contributions.

Well, that's all I have for now.

[G. Couch]

I'd pay for a sponsorship...all I would ask is that you keep any sort of contest simple. There are currently so many challenges and sections to this site that it overwhelms at times...it's great that everyone has their own little niche but if you are planning on some sort of "pro" level monthly contests, just keep it to one per month and keep it simple (not that there could not be a restoration one month followed some sort of "photo art" the next)...I could care less about star, points, titles or anything else beside my name.

The other thing I would like to see is that any such contest be judged by a pro, whether it be someone who posts on this site or someone from the outside. That might not be feasible every month but I think it would go a long ways to giving such contests a legitimacy and real meaning if one were to win. That kind of contest would stir the competitive instinct of pros and amateurs alike...I'll be burning the midnight oil to win the first one!

[W. Rose]

Just starting in Photoshop (about a year) and learning what I have here on this site, I have already made some money. And it is all because of RetouchPro and the wonderful people here. I have bought books for fifty dollars and more, so I have no problem putting some of my money here where I have received more help.
As for a contest, good idea I guess, but members like me probably would not participate because we have seen the competition and you would have the same group of winners each month. Also would members still be willing to share their knowledge with someone else if they were trying to win a contest (human nature tells me no). Just some of my ideas and thoughts. But I do think we should all contribute to help pay the bills.

[jeaniesa]

The bottom line for me is that I continue to pick up so many useful tips and I'm happy to support the site simply because of that. More gallery space or even the chance to win contests would not make me any more likely to support RP. It would be cool to have critiques from "professionals", but again that wouldn't be the primary reason for me to support the site. I haven't been able to participate as much this year as in the past, but I still feel like I learn something new here just about every time I login. That's more than I can say for a lot of my books.

My check will be in the mail tomorrow - honest!

Jeanie

[roger_ele]

I have not responded because i have been luke warm on this ...

For me, a contest would be fun - but not for professional reasons - my customers judge me on my samples and my work, not awards. It would just be fun from a test-myself-competetive-spirit sort of way. Paying to be able to compete would only serve to remind me to be on a schedule with contributions. Which leads to a related idea;

Forget sponsors for contests, if there are sponsors, give them add space on the site - if members want to buy a 'Thank you Retouch pro' ad - or solicit work in the way of paid assisance or outsourcing - or solicit a training CD, let them (maybe a can of worms - but with all of the free resources on this site only a very extra special 'above and beyond the call' kind of effort would be rewarded with sales)

Have contests that are fund raisers ... half of the fee is the prize, the other half goes to the site. Three levels of expertise - Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced. After winning Beginner three times the winner is no longer able to compete in Beginners and competes in Intermediate (or Advanced if they want to ...?) ... anyway, you get the idea. Any member can enter, all members vote and include comments as they wish. These votes determine the vote - one vote per member. This could be like the Gallery on steroids

I get the sense that part of the reason for this conversation at this time is the nebulas fundraising/needs relationship that this site communicates to it's members. Would it be possible to post a simple accounting so that members could see when there is a need? There has to be a format that is respectful of Doug and the members and is politically site/attitude appropriate.

I havn't looked so this may allready be in place, but could the archive's be sold on a CD for those that would like to pay for the convenience?

Hope this helps some,
Roger

[Doug Nelson]

I don't know about you guys, but I still occasionally harbor ambitions for RP becoming the next ebay or google (at least of retouching). A sustenance-only plan for funding will never allow for any sort of growth, let alone the huge, own-the-photoshop-world growth I feel we're capable of.

I fantasize about an actual working budget, where maybe a contract programmer could be hired to finally work some kinks out, or maybe even add some functionality. Maybe buying some original articles, or even developing some sort of teaching plan with actual classes.

But then again, maybe growth is the last thing members want.

As for the off-topic suggestions, they're appreciated, but we can't be both a floor wax and a dessert topping.

[Peter Booth]

Although I seldom get to read this site through pressure of my "proper job" (Plumbing ) Yack!!and other commitments I do really enjoy and feel priviliged to be a member here and have received lots of great ideas from the really nice folks on this site.I've just picked up that there is a book available on retouching so I am very interested in purchasing this item and I have made small contributions in the past so will do so at this point in time also, maybe with my payment for the book? Is it a cd or a "proper" book Doug

[Vikki]

I have no idea what you mean by this:

As for the off-topic suggestions, they're appreciated, but we can't be both a floor wax and a dessert topping.

You did want participation, right?

I think everyone visits here for different reasons. Maybe a poll would be helpful. "What is your main purpose for visiting?". Although you may envision RetouchPro one way, it might be perceived in a different way by the members.

...I still occasionally harbor ambitions for RP becoming the next ebay or google (at least of retouching).

Just my opinion, but in order for RetouchPro to be a mega site, some things need to be addressed.
More participation, and membership by working professionals in the field. Some of the members may be professionals, but what credentials do those who post tutorials and such, have?
Advertising from established company's should be a major contribution to the budget. I don't mind advertising if it's related to the field, and for something I could use. Just about every good site uses advertising, and it could be helpful for newcomers, who are looking for the right tools and products. Advertising from major companies such as Adobe could also be seen as an endorsement. Have you approached any companies?
More challenges that are "real" world challenges, in the sense of what working professionals are paid to do.
The big one: I'm going to get flamed for this, but get rid of the "art" stuff. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with restoration or retouching, and it's diluting the site. In your own words "

we can't be both a floor wax and a dessert topping."

[BonnieN]

The reason I hadn't replied was because I am still so new to the site that I didn't feel my input would mean to much but then again I don't want Doug to feel like I don't have any interest in what happens. Like so many others here I have learned so much since I've been a member here. I have purchased almost every Photoshop CS book I could find plus Katrin's 2nd edition. As far as contests go...I am still so new to PS I doubt if I would enter any contests because I don't feel I am even close to being as good as so many others here. I feel about like what W. Rose said about it. But I did think roger_ele's idea about the different levels was good. Then after the contest everyone can post how they created their entry. That way we can still learn from all levels. A beginner might have a trick or two an advanced persons doesn't know.

To me, if there is going to be a membership there has to be an area non-members don't have access to. There has to be something the members are getting to do or see that makes non-members want to join. At least that is how I am. If I see a website with fantastic tutorials and I want to learn how to do that same thing and the only way I can learn how to do it is by joining....then I join.

BonnieN

[G. Couch]

Originally Posted by Vikki

.
The big one: I'm going to get flamed for this, but get rid of the "art" stuff. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with restoration or retouching, and it's diluting the site. In your own words "

Oddly enough, I tend to agree with what Vikki said (oddly, considering that art is what I went to college for and what I spend an inordinate amount of my free time doing...when not mountain biking! ). Seriously, if the goal is to build the site into an "ebay" for photo work, I would think that streamlining things would be a wise idea, as well as finding new avenues for funding...maybe RetouchPro needs to publish a book... "The Best of RetouchPRo" or something along those lines.

[Doug Nelson]

If we were any more streamlined we wouldn't exist at all

And publishing anything done for RP would be a legal nightmare since I've been so meticulous about maintaining users' copyrights.

I don't think the answer to growth is amputation. Also, growth for its own sake isn't my goal. My goal is to let RP offer services worth something, not spin off products.

It's not like RP is unknown. I think there's a tendency to think of RP as the 20-30 people that post frequently in the forums, but it's really the 30000+ people that stop by every month without posting (or even registering).

[T Paul]

Doug,

Sorry I didn’t reply sooner, but I have been out of town. I really like the sponsorship idea.

Cost: This is a tough one. You don’t want to make it too high. My suggestion is anywhere from $10-20 a year. I belong to a couple of digital photo sites whose annual fees are under $20. $10 will probably give you more sponsors though. That’s an extremely fair price for the extra storage space and contest rights.

Monthly Contests: This is a great idea! I think it will entice many as this ups the challenge level. A few questions though: Who will be the judge(s)? Will the judges change from month to month? Will the authors of the entries be known or unknown?

Another idea along the contest lines is to occasionally hold a compete for cash or prizes contest. You could charge for each entry, like $5.00 per photo or something along those lines. Bragging rights for winning a monthly contest is nice, but the occasional prize makes it even sweeter. This contest could be open to all members (not just sponsors) since you pay per entry. You would probably need to somehow fix it so that the authors of the entries would remain unknown to make the judging fair. This is true for the regular monthly contests as well.

Additional Gallery Space: 5Mb - 10Mb sounds good.

There are also several good ideas mention throughout this thread....