Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?

[aartist]

Back 30 years ago, an older co-worker in his 60's asked me "How do you compete with people on the other side of the world who ride bicycles to work, when we all drive expensive cars to work". He knew it was coming back 30 years ago, he just didn't know how bad it was going to get because there was no internet back then.

He eventually retired and moved cross country to Washington State, where he built a retirement retreat in the mountains. His retirement was going well up until his wife's longtime boyfriend showed up. Total surprise to him and he died a bitter death.

Maybe there are many surprises yet to come for all of us in regard to outsourcing. Sometimes past wars will not protect past gains when many people in power are willing to give it all away for quick & easy profit.

[Markzebra]

I don't get it, you are saying he outsourced his wife?

[Quantum3]

India, India, India... I told you people. I don't know if you already knew about this, but many people laughed at me when I talked about this. Now you have the proof in this post.

The human touch, the face to face cannot be outsourced yet, but wait some years, when communication technology get very well developed and could be afforded by third world countries like India. Have listened the news about science? There is something, still in development, about medicine, where a doctor located in any country can perform a surgery through virtual reality and it's affordable in certain social spheres so, how far is this post from reality? Photographers cannot be outsourced yet, but what about preparing a group of indians in the use of high end cameras and equipment and sending the models to India for a photo shooting? Already hapens with call centers, India has the biggest amount of that. When you call your telephone/cell company to ask something, you're talking with an indian in most of the cases, a mexican and even an argentinean. Labour task, that's right, but for how long? In Argentina, there are few design studios coming from Spain and hiring argentineans so the example about training is not so far from reality as well. We have the trains here, and they were made by English about year 1920.

Even the skills can be found in other countries but the taste and imagination belongs just to very few people all around the world and a serious client will never think about the price when looking for custom editings. Any cheap country in the world doesn't worth what Dragan does, for example.

Godmother said "they live in India", and that's true. They sacrifice a high standard of living because the benefit of the currency change. I think that's a quite short thinking because it's just based in money and earns. The benefit of living in a first world country cannot be compared to earining more money in some third world country, but looking for a higher standard of life goes far beyond than the instictive and short view of those who only cares about money, I say.

[ISeek]

Hello all
Interesting discussion...so I thought I should jump in. I'm an Indian (please don't start bashing me) working in US. I've seen and heard both sides of the world/story, I'll give my 2 cents (or may be 2 Rupees
I use to work in a IT company where they have outsourced lot of project to India. The quality, I won't say that it was terrible BUT it was something different. For example, when we gave the work to that company to work in India, the Indian guy would do it to the way it was asked by the client but limited to his expertise. The thing they lacked was INNOVATION. The same thing when it was done in US, I remember lot of times the programmer would come back and question the work and may suggest better way to do it. Now I'm not suggesting that Indian guys are not innovative but what I'm trying to say is that the work that should be outsourced should be the repetitive work. But that's not what generally happens in companies. Once they get the taste of work at low rate, they try to outsourcing everything.
Now let's talk about people who actually do the outsourcing work. Right from the childhood there is only one thing Indians are taught...that is study hard so that you can get a good job when you grow up. They will do anything and everything to stay ahead of other guys and get a job and make a good living. In this whole process, they may never get to have hobbies or try things differently like people in US do. I've seen kids here in US who are into sports and also playing some instrument and when they grow up, they get into a job in McDonald while still pursuing some other hobby or doing something on the side. This will never work in India with such a big population. Now let's compare the salaries of a person working in McDonald. A person earning $10 an hour in US will still be able to survive in an apartment and can dare to have a small family. But in India that same job may pay you Rs. 4000 - Rs. 6000 which is around $100. Can a person survive in that? Probably. But here's how he gets affected by the outsourcing. Outsourcing brings more money into the country resulting into better pay for some class...resulting in higher class being able to afford expensive thing...in turn making everything more expensive even for lower class people. I just talked to my Dad the other day and he told me the lentils that cost Rs.12 per kg back in 2000 now cost Rs. 85.
Now let's compare the photography/video jobs in the two countries. Last time I was in India for my brother's wedding, we hired a photographer and videographer for the marriage. The person was using a low end slr and his photographs...I can't even begin to compare to the wedding pictures from here. You get what you pay for. The video was another story. The guy had lot of AE or something other application templates and he filled the whole video with it. After watching it for sometime, it felt like its not my brother's wedding that I am looking at but all the "cool" affects that the videogrpher has put in. Felt awful but can't complain with the price that we paid.
The future...well, right now people are worried about jobs getting outsource to India. But soon the prices in India will soar so much that it won't make sense to outsource there. Then I guess it will be some other country. I heard lot of IT companies are building their offices in South America (similar time zone to US, English speaking, less expensive). This cycle will never stop. And who knows, India will then start out sourcing to Israel and then Indians will start complaining about their job getting outsourced.

[Quantum3]

This guy has a very clear and good point of view.

[DJSoulglo]

Originally Posted by aartist

Back 30 years ago, an older co-worker in his 60's asked me "How do you compete with people on the other side of the world who ride bicycles to work, when we all drive expensive cars to work".

But... but... here in Amsterdam, everyone rides a bicycle.

Am I Indian? God, so confused right now.

And Quantum, I don't think people laughed at you when you proposed the notion of work being outsourced to other countries when you said it earlier on this very board. I think the main issue was that you worded what you were trying to say in a way that may have come across as less than sensitive to people of indian descent. I don't think I can say that any more subtle.

I still think that if you do a really good job, the work will stay. People might try other companies, but if you are so good that they see a massive difference between what you're doing and what the other company is doing... The work will stay. But yes, it is scary.

[Quantum3]

Originally Posted by DJSoulglo

But... but... here in Amsterdam, everyone rides a bicycle.

Am I Indian? God, so confused right now.

And Quantum, I don't think people laughed at you when you proposed the notion of work being outsourced to other countries when you said it earlier on this very board. I think the main issue was that you worded what you were trying to say in a way that may have come across as less than sensitive to people of indian descent. I don't think I can say that any more subtle.

I still think that if you do a really good job, the work will stay. People might try other companies, but if you are so good that they see a massive difference between what you're doing and what the other company is doing... The work will stay. But yes, it is scary.

You're right DJSoulglo. I realized of that today. Without trying to justifying myself, many people had misunderstood me too. But at the beginning, I was also somehow confused with many things. Now I have a clearer point of view about all this stuff

[SteveB2005]

Hey Guys. Steve here. I started this thread a few months ago and I must honestly say that I underestimated the response we would be reading here on the forum about outsourcing retouching/digital imagery art to overseas countries.

First, I am a supporter of competition, fair business practices, (avoidance of monopolies)concerns about anti-trust violations, etc. I'm not trying to pick on India as an outsourcing example, because there are a lot of very talented, hard working and smart people living there who are trying to make a living as much as anywhere else in the world.

I've lost work to overseas companies from clients I used to work for that were satisfied with my work and my fair, competitive industry standards, just for the fact, they can get it cheaper overseas. What can I say, every business person out there is looking for deals to save on costs, can't blame them for that.

I don't know where we are headed, nor do I have much of an idea on what to expect in the future for the "creative businesses."

But, I have really enjoyed and learned much reading your responses, debates, ideas, book recommendations and speculation on what we may see in the future. Anyone is certainly free to offer their insight on this thread and I will be watching for any forthcoming.
Thanks Steve

[Quantum3]

What I'm wondering is how far the fairness will go, specially where there are lot of starving and dollar hunger people eating almost every single job from USA and the UK. All people is fair as long as they have some basic satisfactions fulfilled, otherwise there is no fariness.

[designcafe]

I am an Indian.I was really shocked after reading all the posts in this thread.This is a globalized world guys.If you want the rest of the world to drink your coke you must also be prepared for competition from other countries.I used the coke example because it led to the closure of many local soft drinks which were once popular.So let the best one survive.Let the consumer choose what he wants.

///I don't agree.... move to India if you think they have it so good. lol

The game IS FAIR. They charge that but they live in India! ////
Glad that you don't live in India.We had a hard time getting arrogant people like you out of our country and please stay out.And for the one who said The English of Indians is very bad.That is true in some cases but please do remember that English is a secondary language in India.So much for the American English.This editor shows a spelling error when i type 'globalised' or 'colour'.

[aartist]

Originally Posted by designcafe

I am an Indian. <snip> This is a globalized world guys.If you want the rest of the world to drink your coke you must also be prepared for competition from other countries. <snip>
Glad that you don't live in India.We had a hard time getting arrogant people like you out of our country and please stay out.

You sound very ungrateful for getting these off shored Jobs from developed countries. Jobs that were developed over the past 50 to 100 years or so through the hard work and dedication of working people found in North America, Europe and South America. The very same people the jobs were off-shored from.

I could care less if you buy or drink Coke. Keeping the jobs where they were born, created and evolved in would be a better deal than selling India Coke.

Sorry you feel the need to keep certain people out of your country. Wish you felt the same way about these certain people's jobs that have been given to your country and taken from them. "Keep those people out but let their jobs in." must be your motto.

[Markzebra]

Originally Posted by designcafe

The game IS FAIR. They charge that but they live in India! ////
Glad that you don't live in India.We had a hard time getting arrogant people like you out of our country and please stay out.And for the one who said The English of Indians is very bad.That is true in some cases but please do remember that English is a secondary language in India.So much for the American English.This editor shows a spelling error when i type 'globalised' or 'colour'.

You'll find that there are two spellings of those words - the original English spelling, and the American simplification. The substitution of z into everything. I think the word Color is originally Latin, without a U - although the source for the American word is still the UK 'Colour'. We had an empire once you know ;-) and look where that got us.

As you say its a mostly free market out there (unless of course you take into account people who work now, effectively as Public Servants in the Banking and Financial industries). Your point is fair, and your local soft drinks probably employed more people than Retouching does at present.

[jerome65]

Originally Posted by designcafe

I am an Indian.I was really shocked after reading all the posts in this thread.This is a globalized world guys.If you want the rest of the world to drink your coke you must also be prepared for competition from other countries.I used the coke example because it led to the closure of many local soft drinks which were once popular.So let the best one survive.Let the consumer choose what he wants.

///I don't agree.... move to India if you think they have it so good. lol

The game IS FAIR. They charge that but they live in India! ////
Glad that you don't live in India.We had a hard time getting arrogant people like you out of our country and please stay out.And for the one who said The English of Indians is very bad.That is true in some cases but please do remember that English is a secondary language in India.So much for the American English.This editor shows a spelling error when i type 'globalised' or 'colour'.

The difference is that when Coke or Pepsi moves into a country they bring the build their bottling and distribution system in that country which employes people in that country. They also sell their products at a price that the market allow, if not they would not be competitive in that market and would not have been able to dominate it.

With outsourcing jobs like photo retouching, graphic production, design, programing, etc. is that the companies that are selling the service have no presence in the U.S. and thus provide no value to the economy other than draining it of wealth and eliminating jobs. The Indian companies are not concerned with the "local" market value of the service, and due to the lower cost of living in the country are able to provide those services at prices which we in the U.S. cannot compete with due to the cost of living here in the U.S.

The greater issue here is corporate responsibility to the country and community which they operate in and how their decisions today will effect their consumer base tomorrow. The more jobs that are outsourced the fewer consumers there and those that are around will have a less disposable income to purchase the products or services these companies offer.

What we, as designers/photographers/artist/etc. have to offer over the companies in India is an innate understanding of the culture and cultural sensitivities that exist here and a clearer level of communication. With the more conceptual work will hopefully stay here.

[designcafe]

Guys I am sorry i said certain things.I really didn't mean it.When one says something bad about my country my pride is hurt.So i said things i shouldn't have and i take it back.Please think before you say something about people from other countries.The games changes with time and there is a chance you might be on the other side someday.
I know how it feels when my job is taken away because of outsourcing.But this scenario is the result of globalization which aims breaking the borders and creating interdependence and increase prosperity.Well if the retouching people are losing their jobs because of outsourcing then the people who outsource their jobs are probably gaining from it.Yea you are losing jobs but someone from your country is probably gaining from it so i think it is even.People who learn their lessons,change their strategies and adapt to changes will survive.Those who simply complain....(god knows what happens to them).I really hate communists and protectionists.Keep the jobs where they originated from huh?-Grow up the world is changing you can't do anything about is except to adapt to it.About the coke industry.Yea they did produce employment but these jobs were not created newly.These people would have been employed in local soft drink industry anyway.But the profit made from the market goes to the US.Isn't that draining our economy.Coke is just an example.There are numerous other fields in which the local traders have been compromised due to globalization.Jobs,products all are the same.It is a global market and consumer buys the best deal.If you don't want the jobs to be outsourced we should also stop all the trade between countries build a china wall.I can say a lot more but i don't wish to.And one more thing you are not the only one affected by outsourcing.The prices have skyrocketed here because every one is willing to pay more.It is just matter of time before the living expenses equals to those in US or UK.Maybe then it will be a more level playing field and you don't have to complain anymore.It will take some time but it will happen.


//You sound very ungrateful for getting these off shored Jobs from developed countries.//
I don't have to be grateful to anyone.I work for them and they pay for me.I will survive even if i don't have those jobs.I earn more on local projects than through overseas.And i usually don't underbid.
Sorry again if i said something that hurt anyone.But i believe in what i say.There is no change in my stand.All are welcome to India-It is a great place really.
--"The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page." -Saint Augustine

[designcafe]

And i joined retouchpro to improve my retouching skills and connect with other people in the industry.I posted here because i was hurt by the comments posted here.I am really proud of my country and cant be quiet when something bad is said about it.I have friends all over the globe (thanks to the internet ) and i thought the world was flat.But I felt really unwelcome when i saw this thread.It kinda sounded like the racist hate forums you come across.And thanks for the book suggestion 'The world is flat'.Sounds interesting.Gonna grab one.
This is my last post in this thread***.Lots to learn and lots of work to do.
***conditions apply

[Quantum3]

Nobody said you cannot be proud of your country, but when someone says "they still live in India" means that there are countries with much better facilities than India, with a higher standard of life in -terms of materialism- while living in India is very, very cheap and that is what make Indians so competitive but they stay in India, suffering all the problems they have in terms of health, food, space, religions, strikes, education, traffic jams, stress, collapsed public transport (and the big difference between poorness and richness such Mumbai) and many many more stuff related to third world countries. Why are you so proud of India? I would like to know your answer.

[Markzebra]

I've been to India quantum, and whatever your assumptions its a very divided country in terms of material wealth. Design Cafe has a lot to be proud of, and like I have said many times, and this point relates very much to the fears we have, the general work ethic is on a completely different level to anything we are used to.

But I felt really unwelcome when i saw this thread. It kinda sounded like the racist hate forums you come across

YES - I think that is probably one of the best points anyone has made so far. Its a pretty clear statement of the way DesignCafe would have felt when he read some of the posts here. And one that should be listened to, and understood.

[Quantum3]

Markzebra, would you like to tell me those charateristics DesignCafe is proud of?

[designcafe]

but they stay in India, suffering all the problems they have in terms of health, food, space, religions, strikes, education, traffic jams, stress, collapsed public transport (and the big difference between poorness and richness such Mumbai)

Yes some of what you say is true to some extent.No living costs are not low.It might seem to you that living costs are low because of the the value of rupee against dollar.Rent for one month comes around Rs6000 for a 2 bedroom place.That is around $60 which might seem low to you.But a middle class person earns a average of Rs25000.That is $250.So living costs are pretty high for an average Indian.Everyone is not in the outsourcing business.Yes for a person who outsources it is quiet profitable.So you are right.And we are competitive.
Why am i proud to be an indian?
Yes living standards might be lower compared to UK or US.Please remember that the so called third world countries(i don't know why you like to mentioned it as third world) or those who didn't align themselves with the US or Russia during the cold war were under colonial rule for nearly two centuries.These people from these countries were suppressed and were left in a really bad state when they were given Independence.In this 60 years of freedom we have achieved a lot to be proud of.
Some of the reasons to be proud of
1.We have one of the most advanced space technologies(US outsourced their satellites to be launched by India :-) ).I think you know about the chandrayan mission.We will soon have a manned mission and hopefully a man on the moon.We have also a mars mission around 2013.[Well if you are wondering why i am talking about space i have have a special interest in space]
*Health-I know a lot of people from western world who come to India to get health care and specialized surgeries.From what i hear it is because they have to wait for a really long time to get treated and it costs a fortune for treatment in some cases.We are certainly lacking in some areas but things are changing.
*Food-In the place i live in they provide 1kg rice for Rs1.$1=Rs50.There are still places where there is lack in food security but with the growing economy things are bound to get better.(If you are talking about how the food tastes you certainly haven't tried Indian food.)
*Space- what about space?We are a country with a billion people.It is natural the cities are crowded.(And please remember Mumbai is not India-There is a lot more)
*Religions-I don't know how we are suffering because of this.I am proud that my country is home to so many religions,languages,cultures,traditions and still we live together.We don't judge people by their colour,language,religion.There are certainly some fanatics but that is not the majority is.In every street you are sure to find people from at least three different religions speaking 3 different languages(might be more) and i have a blog and there are many from US,UK and western world who think religion means Christianity.And those who say anyone who doesn't believe in christ goes to hell.(I am agnostic :-))
*Strikes-Yes ihate strikes and communists,unions and protectionism.
*education-What about education?.We have some of the best schools.We have a compulsory and free education till age of 14 years.
*traffic jams-Are there no traffic jams in NYC? wow thats really cool.We cant help it.India is a busy and happening country and traffic jams are bound to happen.
*stress-i don't know what you are talking about-can you be more clear?
*collapsed public transport-I think we have a pretty good public transport system.Yes it is pretty crowded.But most people use public transport and you can reach any part of the city or country using public transportation at a really low cost and quickly too.We don't drive fuel guzzling expensive cars to work.We don't pollute the earth as the people from the first world country do and think it is their right.
*(and the big difference between poorness and richness such Mumbai)- first of all mumbai is not India.Yes there is difference in standards between the rich and the poor.But is there no such difference in the western world(I know for a fact it is not the case).i don't deny the fact but it is not a problem that can be solved in a day.
With all its faults there are thousand things to be proud of being an Indian.You wont understand it unless you are from India.
I am proud that when countries that have no differences in terms of religion,language or other things struggle to have a peaceful democratic government.We with a thousand religions,languages,culture have a democratic government.
I am proud that we make you scared of us.
We have come a long way and we have a long way to go.We won't give up.
The British took away a lot of things from us and their other colonies.Leaving us nothing.But they gave us one thing we are grateful for-the English language.We will get back what we lost with this.
If a US person can provide services to a UK or other western nations and vice-versa.I don't see any reason why India or any of the third world country shouldn't and be discriminated.After all they are partly responsible for the state the so called third world countries are in.
P.S-It the western countries and the US that promoted globalization and free trade and so you should face the dark side of it too.Everyone can't have the best of everything.

[Quantum3]

Nice reply, Design Cafe, but I still find some oddities in it.

The positive things you are proud of belongs to the high wealth people, and that people always is a minority and they don't build a country. For example, how many people can afford the technology advance in India? I know there are lot of IT people in India, but that doesn't mean they can afford what they build (mostly because it's exported to first world countries due the outsourcing). But about the space, just few indians can afford such thing or the like. I mean, that's not solving any real and urgent problem in India, and its only useful to show it off, the same like in cold war with weapons and such. I mean, it's not substancial going to the moon whit thousand of million of starving people on the earth.

About health, how many indians can get the same treatment than the rich people from first world countries get in India? That reminds me to Cuba, where only the tourists and VIP's can afford that quality of service.

I haven't tasted Indian Food, but I have been told it is exquisite. I was reffering to all those mouths that need food. Good qiuality food is affordable for the regular indian? I have seen many videos about India in YouTube and doesn't seem the big part of the population is able to eat in some restaurant. Of course, it's not Etiopia or Somalia.

About space, I have never seen such amount of crowed people such in India, Hong Kong, China or Japan. In fact, these 3 latest have some weird manners to control the space. I saw this in Google Earth and it looks quite insane to me.

About religion, I meant the attacks that indians suffers from other religions, such fanatics (I think they're muslim fanatics). As far as I know, those attacks happens with some kind of regularity (in my country, we don't have terrorist attacks by religion or by ideology, just one and about 20 years ago but we had "civil wars" in 2 opportunities, both started by comunists). Just for your know, I'm pretty close to indian religion more than Christianity (Don't know how many religions you have there, but the followers of the Krshna's Consiusness is quite interesting and right to me, but I'm not vegetarian, however, they're quite right about that and I also love indian music such as Ravi Shankar, or philosophers such as Krishnamurti. Just to mention that I have respect for the indian culture and I like it, but sometimes I get misunderstood).

I also hate strikes and comunists. I'm a lover of education, self awareness and the subsequent free will in this order (not like most people that believes: free will then nothing before or after = chaos instead harmony).

About education, how many people is able to go to the best school? It's easy saying "we have the best X" but if that ¡s not affordable for the big stream of people then that statment is meaningless. We have free education in Argentina, every single person can go to every single level of education for free but the quality of education is very poor and very outdated. There are some exceptions. And becuase education is free, classrooms are highly crowed, specially in the University and it's impossible to learn something in such conditions. For example, in summer we have temperatures up to 40-45ºC and University here doesn't have any device to cold the air, sum the clasroom is made to hold no more than 50 students, but there are much more than 600 students. Some carrers have less amount of students, but the ratio keeps the same. In winter, we don't have any device that warms the air, so in summer, the classroom gets crowed but lot of students remains outside now imagine in winter with temperatures below 0ºC. It's quite clear an student will learn much more in better conditions and I don't think India has those conditions considering the amount of people living in India (we're just 44 million of people).

The transport system is quite crowed.

All these items should stress any form of life.

How does India to propperly feed, heal, and teach to thousand of billion of people? Without these basic facts of life a civilization cannot evolve and insert them selves into this globalized and materialistic world more than doing labors but history has it changes, and very important ones so I'm not saying India cannot be a big potence, with opportunities for every single indian, what I'm saying it'¡s not right now and it seems only just few and very lucky people is able to afford certain basic things, as you say at the beginning of your message when talking about the cost of life in India. I'm still wondering why are you so proud of India. I thought you will say something related to the indian philosophy or religion, something less occidental-like.

[Markzebra]

Looks like he told you. Might add a few things from my humble and ill-informed observations, going there on holiday once: Beautiful country, feeling of a people pulling themselves out of inconceivable poverty, with hard work and resilience.

http://www.indiamike.com/india/humou...-india-t14893/

[mjmdigital]

So i have decided to start doing retouching at 50 cents a photo! Just because im tired of seeing this thread pop up and up and up again over the last year.

[Quantum3]

Originally Posted by Markzebra

Looks like he told you. Might add a few things from my humble and ill-informed observations, going there on holiday once: Beautiful country, feeling of a people pulling themselves out of inconceivable poverty, with hard work and resilience.

http://www.indiamike.com/india/humou...-india-t14893/

Well... that was what I was expecting. Many replies in that forum, but enough sustancial to read them all (meaning just the first 2 pages were enough). If I would be an indian, I would probably will proud of that, and of course, I would be proud of the philosophy and religion from there, and the sense of peace and meditation and how to achieve those virtues in the daily life.

[SteveB2005]

I want to turn the page toward fair business practices active in the USA and operating an environment of competitive, smaller family type businesses. Months back, there was a documentary that focused on the Wall-Mart Corporation that discussed how Wall-Mart would want to move into a city, but many of the residents and business owners were against them coming to their hometowns. They had seen what had happened to other cities when Wal-Mart set up a store and then the mom and pop hardware stores, goods and services, etc. could not compete after generations of families were successful doing business with their local friends and clients. Wal-Mart maybe the largest retailer in the USA so far, but at what price of the result to the smaller communities to operate in?

So is it fair for large corporations to open up their business but cause other, older established business in the community to fold up and die? On the other hand, Wall-Mart employs thousands of workers where ever they operate.

Wasn't Microsoft in some lawsuits in the past about FTC issues, anti-trust violations, but mainly the concern of being labeled a monopoly? Apparently smaller software companies couldn't stay in business competing with the Microsoft giant. What about Ma Bell, wasn't there some kind of monopoly issues that caused the breakup of the phone company Goliath?

What happened when Jimmy Hoffa, Teamsters supporter, boss that stood up for better working conditions and wages for truck drivers, longshoreman and warehouse workers? I'm just focusing on Mr. Hoffa's pluses he did, not the negatives he was mixed up in.

Also, please if you are Indian, don't take this issue personally. It's not meant to be. American companies have interests in many other countries throughout the world. There is certainly a lot of manufacturing and assembly jobs in China and sold in America. Apple Computer is one example, and my MacBook was made there.

American owned company Nike had their shoes produced mainly from young girls in Taiwan for something like 47 cents an hour or day, something like that. And during the Bush Admin, the US government wanted to outsource the security business to protect the commerce ports in So California to the United Arab Emirates. until there was a huge public outcry. Why couldn't an American company have gotten the contract and provided our own US citizens the jobs? Those ports are on our ground, our own hood, come on.

See, the whole climate of fair business practices is not meant to have the finger pointed to India, China, Korea, any overseas company who is contracted by the US where they can get cheaper labor and production and many other perks. This thread's purpose I think, is discovering some ideas and answers on what will it take for the US and overseas companies to provide a fair, competitive business climate so more people can have jobs, pay their bills and not be run out of business because of monopolies, low-ball pricing, sub-standard working conditions and a united, healthy economic environment.

And again, please accept our apologies if we have offended any citizens of India or any other overseas countries. This thread was never meant to become a personal attack on any individual workers. It's not the worker, it's the system we take issues with and what we can do to make some improvements.

I read Alvin Toffler's prophetic book, Future Shock years back, and mot of what he predicted has happened or is happening as future moves forward. An idealist, a bit I am, my influences reading Plato's The Republic got me thinking.

BTW, we have more people on the planet now that at any other time in history and growing. If the current population doubles in 10-20 years, can the world's business and educational institutions train and prepare literally 8 billion job positions and companies the world over? Look at the unemployment figure today and how many banks and businesses have folded. We have literally 100-1000 people out of work looking to fill only one or two openings out there now. And of course, many talented high level retouchers and photographers seeking work. Well anyway. good luck and prosperity to us all who wish to work and have a place to do so.

[aartist]

Originally Posted by SteveB2005

<snip>This thread was never meant to become a personal attack on any individual workers. It's not the worker, it's the system we take issues with and what we can do to make some improvements.<snip>

Well said SteveB2005.

We as workers have little or no say over what these large International Corporations decide to do when it comes to "Globalization" policy. Our governments usually go along with what the Global Giants want in regard to trade between countries. What is good for these corporations is not necessarily good for their workers or others that feel the effects through job loss or reduced compensation.

[Quantum3]

Wallmart is insane. The less sellers, the more consumers, that's their equation. Become a consumer and stop selling. And what about the "jobs" it creates? All the people working in Wallmart are just meaningless zombies without a life, without a vocation, their just drained from society, like homeless but with different faces and look, because they're damn condemned to compulsively consume and they never will get some education or self-awareness because wallmart blinds and dumbs its workers. Fuck Wallmart!

[aartist]

Originally Posted by Quantum3

<snip> *<snip>uck Wallmart!

Well said, Quantum3.

What rhymes with Duck, is actually an old German word which refers to plowing/seeding the farm fields. Has something to do with planting seeds.

[Janko]

so i though id give my 2 cents about the whole India thing...

first of all of course designcafe is defensive, everybody would be. in fact i'm not indian at all and i was offended by some of the things said in here.

no country is perfect. i'm both american and croatian and both of those countries have plenty to be ashamed of but also proud of. Quantum are you proud of Argentina? If we spent half as much time talking about argentinas problems as indias I think you wouldn't like that very much.... And unless you've lived in india and experienced the so-called "problems" I dont see how you have a very credible opinion on the matter...

India has brought many wonderful things to this world and I really hope to go there someday to see it first hand.

If you're a freelancer in the west and you lost work to an Indian or Chinese or whatever contractor. You can't blame them for taking your work. You need to position yourself to provide a service that cant be provided by your competitors doesn't matter if they're down the street or around the world.

I know its hard to compete against the prices from developing countries. All that means you have to figure out how to break into the market with higher rates.

The coke thing earlier in the thread made me laugh.. you think the profits from selling coke globally aren't creating jobs in the US?? trust me if a new law came out that prevented coke and pepsi or whatever from distributing their products in india and china and everywhere else, there would be huge layoffs here in the states right away. so really in the grand scheme the money retouchers in India are taking away is microscopic in comparison from all the money were milking from all over the world.

[Quantum3]

Originally Posted by Janko

so i though id give my 2 cents about the whole India thing...

Quantum are you proud of Argentina? If we spent half as much time talking about argentinas problems as indias I think you wouldn't like that very much.... And unless you've lived in india and experienced the so-called "problems" I dont see how you have a very credible opinion on the matter...

I knew that question would be brought. I think the question shouldbe what's is worth of pride? For example, I have red a link posted by Markzebra where many people talks about the good things found in India. Any person could be proud of any matter in relation with X subject, it could me said. So, an Indian could be proud of X about its country. I figured this "formula" last night. In conclusion, pride is quite subjective and it depends on our personal values. I personally value Education, Respect, Ethic, Health and Justice. What I would like to be proud of? This also could be another question.
I value a lot those nouns, specially ethics and education, which is the corner stone of all the others.

Going back to your question.

I'm not proud of Argentina because I don't have nothing to be proud of and it's very sad, you know? Our health care system is a total mess, our education system is another mess, retired people is treated like the worst garbage, poverty is used to gain votes in elections, politicians are damn corrupted, the non respect is every day fact, crimes everywhere and delinquents are not judged, drugs for every where, ignorance, strikes, government institutions are another mess (the list is HUGE). I care about these things. I know many people, specially latin americans, say the U.S. is bad and they want to rule the world and blah, blah, blah, but I have a great admiration and respect toward the U.S. Every year lot of big brains move abroad from Argentina to Canada, U.S.A. and Europe, so it must be a reason. Famous people such Borges and Piazzola did it. the Dr. René Favaloro, who created the Bypass, killed him self because the country ungratitude/ungratefulness. Nikola Tesla, just an aparent little scientist from Serbia (the most genius man in the history of humanity!) moved abroad to the U.S. and nowadays, most of high tech devices are based in Tesla (it happens in many countries, not just in Argentina). So, Argentina is similar to India in some aspects, what changes is the people and the whole culture and how this conditions the human behavior. Argentineans are familiarized to do whatever they want, not what they should or what they must. Ask an aergentinean to pick up a paper of the streets and be prepared to: be insulted, be punched, be killed or be ignored. Ask to an argentinean to walkout the dog with a plastic bag, it will think you're crazy. The list is HUGE, from the most insignificant thing till the most bigger and important ones. If at least, argentinean behavior would be polite and paceful like indians, at least, I would be proud of that.
My admiration also goes to Canada and Europe and I'm going to Europe next year, planning to live there so I'm working a lot for this. I DO LOVE ORDER and I really care a shit about the "latin passion" and "frienship" those things are just lies. I found much more friendship beign helped to PROGRESS! As Alan, Sheldon and Abe helped me a lot to evolve and I have this people in my heart. Just see how grateful is the people who moved to the U.S. and Europe, they work the best because they're treated with dignity. Somebody could say they're margined because they're inmigrants, but Argentina margination aganist its citizens is ten thousand worst.

Originally Posted by Janko

If you're a freelancer in the west and you lost work to an Indian or Chinese or whatever contractor. You can't blame them for taking your work. You need to position yourself to provide a service that cant be provided by your competitors doesn't matter if they're down the street or around the world.

I know its hard to compete against the prices from developing countries. All that means you have to figure out how to break into the market with higher rates.

You're right about that and through Experience I found what was wrong. Thanks to these guys (Alan, Sheldon and Abe) I found many faliures in my works, so I started doing these much perfect and I also did a better portfolio. Right now I'm getting more and more clients from everywhere and I just get amazed when I win projects where my price is 1000% more expensive than the average and where the competence is always above 120 retouchers. Not bragging, just statics and I will become much better! Becuase I have the spirit! Or my name is not Øuantum3!!!!!!!! =D haha!

[Quantum3]

1 positive thing about argentina is the meat and the food from the farms because it's equisite and we have the best farm products on almost the whole world, same with wines, honey, cheese, olive oil etc... But I'm not proud of that. And by the way, since a bit more than a year, Argentina isn't exporting anymore, and farms are dying because the actual president we have here, who's a damn comunist such as Chavez but I don't know who's worst, really, if the brainless of Chavez or the Big Brain of Néstor Kirchnner and his wife, is not allowing exportations (because the presidential couple wants to weak the farms for some personal things, such a law the government couldn't win about raising the taxes to gaines above 50% and they are trying to weak the farms in order to buy them for peanuts). Now Brazil has the lead.