Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

Back 30 years ago, an older co-worker in his 60's asked me "How do you compete with people on the other side of the world who ride bicycles to work, when we all drive expensive cars to work". He knew it was coming back 30 years ago, he just didn't know how bad it was going to get because there was no internet back then.

He eventually retired and moved cross country to Washington State, where he built a retirement retreat in the mountains. His retirement was going well up until his wife's longtime boyfriend showed up. Total surprise to him and he died a bitter death.

Maybe there are many surprises yet to come for all of us in regard to outsourcing. Sometimes past wars will not protect past gains when many people in power are willing to give it all away for quick & easy profit.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

I don't get it, you are saying he outsourced his wife?

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

India, India, India... I told you people. I don't know if you already knew about this, but many people laughed at me when I talked about this. Now you have the proof in this post.

The human touch, the face to face cannot be outsourced yet, but wait some years, when communication technology get very well developed and could be afforded by third world countries like India. Have listened the news about science? There is something, still in development, about medicine, where a doctor located in any country can perform a surgery through virtual reality and it's affordable in certain social spheres so, how far is this post from reality? Photographers cannot be outsourced yet, but what about preparing a group of indians in the use of high end cameras and equipment and sending the models to India for a photo shooting? Already hapens with call centers, India has the biggest amount of that. When you call your telephone/cell company to ask something, you're talking with an indian in most of the cases, a mexican and even an argentinean. Labour task, that's right, but for how long? In Argentina, there are few design studios coming from Spain and hiring argentineans so the example about training is not so far from reality as well. We have the trains here, and they were made by English about year 1920.

Even the skills can be found in other countries but the taste and imagination belongs just to very few people all around the world and a serious client will never think about the price when looking for custom editings. Any cheap country in the world doesn't worth what Dragan does, for example.

Godmother said "they live in India", and that's true. They sacrifice a high standard of living because the benefit of the currency change. I think that's a quite short thinking because it's just based in money and earns. The benefit of living in a first world country cannot be compared to earining more money in some third world country, but looking for a higher standard of life goes far beyond than the instictive and short view of those who only cares about money, I say.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

Hello all
Interesting discussion...so I thought I should jump in. I'm an Indian (please don't start bashing me) working in US. I've seen and heard both sides of the world/story, I'll give my 2 cents (or may be 2 Rupees :)
I use to work in a IT company where they have outsourced lot of project to India. The quality, I won't say that it was terrible BUT it was something different. For example, when we gave the work to that company to work in India, the Indian guy would do it to the way it was asked by the client but limited to his expertise. The thing they lacked was INNOVATION. The same thing when it was done in US, I remember lot of times the programmer would come back and question the work and may suggest better way to do it. Now I'm not suggesting that Indian guys are not innovative but what I'm trying to say is that the work that should be outsourced should be the repetitive work. But that's not what generally happens in companies. Once they get the taste of work at low rate, they try to outsourcing everything.
Now let's talk about people who actually do the outsourcing work. Right from the childhood there is only one thing Indians are taught...that is study hard so that you can get a good job when you grow up. They will do anything and everything to stay ahead of other guys and get a job and make a good living. In this whole process, they may never get to have hobbies or try things differently like people in US do. I've seen kids here in US who are into sports and also playing some instrument and when they grow up, they get into a job in McDonald while still pursuing some other hobby or doing something on the side. This will never work in India with such a big population. Now let's compare the salaries of a person working in McDonald. A person earning $10 an hour in US will still be able to survive in an apartment and can dare to have a small family. But in India that same job may pay you Rs. 4000 - Rs. 6000 which is around $100. Can a person survive in that? Probably. But here's how he gets affected by the outsourcing. Outsourcing brings more money into the country resulting into better pay for some class...resulting in higher class being able to afford expensive thing...in turn making everything more expensive even for lower class people. I just talked to my Dad the other day and he told me the lentils that cost Rs.12 per kg back in 2000 now cost Rs. 85.
Now let's compare the photography/video jobs in the two countries. Last time I was in India for my brother's wedding, we hired a photographer and videographer for the marriage. The person was using a low end slr and his photographs...I can't even begin to compare to the wedding pictures from here. You get what you pay for. The video was another story. The guy had lot of AE or something other application templates and he filled the whole video with it. After watching it for sometime, it felt like its not my brother's wedding that I am looking at but all the "cool" affects that the videogrpher has put in. Felt awful but can't complain with the price that we paid.
The future...well, right now people are worried about jobs getting outsource to India. But soon the prices in India will soar so much that it won't make sense to outsource there. Then I guess it will be some other country. I heard lot of IT companies are building their offices in South America (similar time zone to US, English speaking, less expensive). This cycle will never stop. And who knows, India will then start out sourcing to Israel and then Indians will start complaining about their job getting outsourced.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

This guy has a very clear and good point of view.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

But... but... here in Amsterdam, everyone rides a bicycle.

Am I Indian? God, so confused right now.

And Quantum, I don't think people laughed at you when you proposed the notion of work being outsourced to other countries when you said it earlier on this very board. I think the main issue was that you worded what you were trying to say in a way that may have come across as less than sensitive to people of indian descent. I don't think I can say that any more subtle.

I still think that if you do a really good job, the work will stay. People might try other companies, but if you are so good that they see a massive difference between what you're doing and what the other company is doing... The work will stay. But yes, it is scary.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

You're right DJSoulglo. I realized of that today. Without trying to justifying myself, many people had misunderstood me too. But at the beginning, I was also somehow confused with many things. Now I have a clearer point of view about all this stuff :)

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

Hey Guys. Steve here. I started this thread a few months ago and I must honestly say that I underestimated the response we would be reading here on the forum about outsourcing retouching/digital imagery art to overseas countries.

First, I am a supporter of competition, fair business practices, (avoidance of monopolies)concerns about anti-trust violations, etc. I'm not trying to pick on India as an outsourcing example, because there are a lot of very talented, hard working and smart people living there who are trying to make a living as much as anywhere else in the world.

I've lost work to overseas companies from clients I used to work for that were satisfied with my work and my fair, competitive industry standards, just for the fact, they can get it cheaper overseas. What can I say, every business person out there is looking for deals to save on costs, can't blame them for that.

I don't know where we are headed, nor do I have much of an idea on what to expect in the future for the "creative businesses."

But, I have really enjoyed and learned much reading your responses, debates, ideas, book recommendations and speculation on what we may see in the future. Anyone is certainly free to offer their insight on this thread and I will be watching for any forthcoming.
Thanks Steve

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

What I'm wondering is how far the fairness will go, specially where there are lot of starving and dollar hunger people eating almost every single job from USA and the UK. All people is fair as long as they have some basic satisfactions fulfilled, otherwise there is no fariness.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

I am an Indian.I was really shocked after reading all the posts in this thread.This is a globalized world guys.If you want the rest of the world to drink your coke you must also be prepared for competition from other countries.I used the coke example because it led to the closure of many local soft drinks which were once popular.So let the best one survive.Let the consumer choose what he wants.

///I don't agree.... move to India if you think they have it so good. lol

The game IS FAIR. They charge that but they live in India! ////
Glad that you don't live in India.We had a hard time getting arrogant people like you out of our country and please stay out.And for the one who said The English of Indians is very bad.That is true in some cases but please do remember that English is a secondary language in India.So much for the American English.This editor shows a spelling error when i type 'globalised' or 'colour'.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

You sound very ungrateful for getting these off shored Jobs from developed countries. Jobs that were developed over the past 50 to 100 years or so through the hard work and dedication of working people found in North America, Europe and South America. The very same people the jobs were off-shored from.

I could care less if you buy or drink Coke. Keeping the jobs where they were born, created and evolved in would be a better deal than selling India Coke.

Sorry you feel the need to keep certain people out of your country. Wish you felt the same way about these certain people's jobs that have been given to your country and taken from them. "Keep those people out but let their jobs in." must be your motto.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

You'll find that there are two spellings of those words - the original English spelling, and the American simplification. The substitution of z into everything. I think the word Color is originally Latin, without a U - although the source for the American word is still the UK 'Colour'. We had an empire once you know ;-) and look where that got us.

As you say its a mostly free market out there (unless of course you take into account people who work now, effectively as Public Servants in the Banking and Financial industries). Your point is fair, and your local soft drinks probably employed more people than Retouching does at present.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

The difference is that when Coke or Pepsi moves into a country they bring the build their bottling and distribution system in that country which employes people in that country. They also sell their products at a price that the market allow, if not they would not be competitive in that market and would not have been able to dominate it.

With outsourcing jobs like photo retouching, graphic production, design, programing, etc. is that the companies that are selling the service have no presence in the U.S. and thus provide no value to the economy other than draining it of wealth and eliminating jobs. The Indian companies are not concerned with the "local" market value of the service, and due to the lower cost of living in the country are able to provide those services at prices which we in the U.S. cannot compete with due to the cost of living here in the U.S.

The greater issue here is corporate responsibility to the country and community which they operate in and how their decisions today will effect their consumer base tomorrow. The more jobs that are outsourced the fewer consumers there and those that are around will have a less disposable income to purchase the products or services these companies offer.

What we, as designers/photographers/artist/etc. have to offer over the companies in India is an innate understanding of the culture and cultural sensitivities that exist here and a clearer level of communication. With the more conceptual work will hopefully stay here.

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

Guys I am sorry i said certain things.I really didn't mean it.When one says something bad about my country my pride is hurt.So i said things i shouldn't have and i take it back.Please think before you say something about people from other countries.The games changes with time and there is a chance you might be on the other side someday.
I know how it feels when my job is taken away because of outsourcing.But this scenario is the result of globalization which aims breaking the borders and creating interdependence and increase prosperity.Well if the retouching people are losing their jobs because of outsourcing then the people who outsource their jobs are probably gaining from it.Yea you are losing jobs but someone from your country is probably gaining from it so i think it is even.People who learn their lessons,change their strategies and adapt to changes will survive.Those who simply complain....(god knows what happens to them).I really hate communists and protectionists.Keep the jobs where they originated from huh?-Grow up the world is changing you can't do anything about is except to adapt to it.About the coke industry.Yea they did produce employment but these jobs were not created newly.These people would have been employed in local soft drink industry anyway.But the profit made from the market goes to the US.Isn't that draining our economy.Coke is just an example.There are numerous other fields in which the local traders have been compromised due to globalization.Jobs,products all are the same.It is a global market and consumer buys the best deal.If you don't want the jobs to be outsourced we should also stop all the trade between countries build a china wall.I can say a lot more but i don't wish to.And one more thing you are not the only one affected by outsourcing.The prices have skyrocketed here because every one is willing to pay more.It is just matter of time before the living expenses equals to those in US or UK.Maybe then it will be a more level playing field and you don't have to complain anymore.It will take some time but it will happen.


//You sound very ungrateful for getting these off shored Jobs from developed countries.//
I don't have to be grateful to anyone.I work for them and they pay for me.I will survive even if i don't have those jobs.I earn more on local projects than through overseas.And i usually don't underbid.
Sorry again if i said something that hurt anyone.But i believe in what i say.There is no change in my stand.All are welcome to India-It is a great place really.
--"The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page." -Saint Augustine

Re: Outsourcing Retouching Services To India?
 

And i joined retouchpro to improve my retouching skills and connect with other people in the industry.I posted here because i was hurt by the comments posted here.I am really proud of my country and cant be quiet when something bad is said about it.I have friends all over the globe (thanks to the internet ) and i thought the world was flat.But I felt really unwelcome when i saw this thread.It kinda sounded like the racist hate forums you come across.And thanks for the book suggestion 'The world is flat'.Sounds interesting.Gonna grab one.
This is my last post in this thread***.Lots to learn and lots of work to do.
***conditions apply