Client issues with payment

[demandapanda]

So I have this one pain in the ass client, I was stupid in not invoicing them often enough so now they owe me over $700 and they're asking for a discount.....on a rate that is already extremely low and discounted because they say they didn't "budget" for how long it takes to retouch their shitty photos....they're basically so cheap they refuse to hire a photographer and I get images from a point and shoot to look like they were taken on a product table. I just want them to pay me and after that never want to work with them again. But they're basically refusing to pay the full invoice. I don't even know what to do, this is like a joke. I normally only work directly with studios/photographers who don't give me any issues and know how things work, this is a designer, pretty much hobbyist who doesn't know how anything works at all on the creative end. I'm just done with this person, just want my money and I don't want to lose any more than I already have, they're already getting a ridiculously low rate. What do I say/do?

[mistermonday]

Do you have any written agreement, contract, or statement of work? Any correspondence from the customer about the work or the price - either in written or email form? Do the operate a legitimate business with a company name / address / website?
Has the customer asked for a discount because he feels that your work does not meet expectations or because he estimated how long it would take you but it took you longer? Or what reasons specifically has he given you? Was there an up front clear statement of work, verbal or otherwise?
Regards, Murray

[demandapanda]

I have emails of the agreements and me telling her how much my rate will be hourly. I tried to keep her up to date with how long things took as much as possible, especially any time I knew she might be uneasy about the amount because I didn't want to keep working if I hit her budget limit. She's completely satisfied with the images, I mean, they're perfect and compared to the original image....you wouldn't even know they were the same photo, seriously. The bulk of my work is retouching product for fashion magazines with actual photographers. She knows nothing about photography and sends me snapshots of her bags and what I give back to her looks just as good, if not better than what you would see in a magazine. Quality isn't an issue, and even how long they took, I do them relatively quick, she's just insanely cheap. She says she had no idea how long it would take, but I even sent her an email on the second day of a job about how long I had spent on it so far and she kept asking for little tweaks here and there (which add up time wise) and sending more images for me to work on. I save every single email with this woman. I've basically been waiting to get paid for the bulk of what she owes me so that I can finally break it off with her, I haven't wanted to work with her for months, but I don't want to tell her I'm not willing to work with her again until I get paid.

I have no doubt I could take her to court, but I'm not sure how to politely tell her I can't give her any further discounts and that it's unfair for her to expect me to work for the same amount I could make working in a retail store when I'm using skills that cost me A LOT of money to gain in school and using extremely expensive equipment to do the work on (my computer, hard drive, wacom, etc.)

[skydog]

If you have a friend that is a lawyer you could have them write a letter saying that you will take legal action if they don't pay. Then you are taking a risk that you will get nothing unless you do take some action. Legal action, however, takes money and the $700 would be gone in no time. Or take what money you can and realize you have learned a valuable costly lesson. Some of us have learned this lesson at even a higher price! Good luck.

[mistermonday]

You could take her to court but it would cost you way more than the money she owes you.
First of all you should always have some type of contractual agreement that the customer has signed that includes a rate (hourly or fixed) that describes what the deliverables are as well as min / max limits on time or $ and tweaks / reworks etc. It does not need to be a major legal document. When you are dealing with the type of customer you seem to have, you need to have a clearly define statement of work, deliverables, commitments, and most of all limits. That doesn't mean the customer will honor its part of the agreement but it does give you better footing to protect yourself.
Furthermore when dealing with this type of customer, you should also consider only delivering watermarked proofs and only hand over high quality images after you receive payment.
When you do recv payment, however much that is, inform the customer that it does not cover your cost and see what happens. If you do not get the difference, cut your losses, and chock this one up to one of life's cruel learning lessons regarding business practices the nature of some people, and move on.
Good luck and regards, Murray

[demandapanda]

Is there anywhere that has good examples of retouching contracts? I normally work with studios who just don't pull this kind of crap so I have no need for any kind of contracts or anything with them.

I know taking her to court isn't worth it, I assume I could take her to small claims, but she's actually loaded so she might hire a lawyer and then I'd be afraid of them somehow coming up with some way to counter sue, I don't know what they could do that for, but maybe legal fees (she can totally afford to pay me, she just cries poor....which when I've been to her upper/midtown high rise condo is ballsy to do). I don't want to go to court, I just want to tell her in a professional manner that it's completely ridiculous that she expects me to work for any less than I've already agreed to and that I won't be giving her any more discounts.

[demandapanda]

ugh, I just sent an email basically explaining that it's unacceptable for me to lower my rate to the same amount I could make at a retail job when I'm using expensive equipment, paying rent on my work space and utilities, using skills that took tens of thousands of dollars and years of school and professional experience to gain, etc., etc. I offered to let her pay in parts over time, but said I couldn't offer further discounts.

I don't know if any of that is professional at all, but I'm just done caring.

[plugsnpixels]

Lesson #1: Have a contract

Lesson #2: Get a down-payment

Rule of thumb: The less they are paying, the more they are expecting (applies to wedding photography as well ;-) )

[DWThomp]

Originally Posted by plugsnpixels

Lesson #1: Have a contract

Lesson #2: Get a down-payment

Rule of thumb: The less they are paying, the more they are expecting (applies to wedding photography as well ;-) )

#3 - Watermark image. Remove after payment received.

[twopoint0]

The client really wants to step up in quality, but there's only a really small budget on this one....ads demanding tons of experience for low pay, or ones for unpaid "interns" with retouching, Flash and page layout experience. Even worse are clients trying to renegotiate by withholding payment.
It's sickening.
I don't have any advice on getting paid, I'm just blowing off steam. Hopefully, they'll send you a drop dead emergency job that you can hold until you get paid!

[Mike]

Do you have small claims courts where you are?

Filing fees are usually just a few bucks and you and they cannot have a lawyer.

Might be worth a try.

[Quantum3]

The client is mature enough to know about how is expending on something, assuming that your client does business often. If not, just let it pay you the remains in the next month.

Always be logical and calm with your client but be aware of the different states of the human being when in troubles (because your client is in troubles, not you, remember that). I cannot find a funny video about the different states of the human when having a problem but one of the states is rejecting the problem and the final state is accepting the problem. What I'm aiming to with this is that you have to be aware of human behavior in order to know all about the reaction of your client and how you can persuade him to pay you. Probably, your client had tried to throw its guilty on you, that's a usual resource used by people which is in fault, and you should know how to make your client aware that it's its fault, not yours, using a good language and a good reasoning. So you also have to know about logics besides some psychology.

Here you have a fallacies dictionary, which is super useful having one and study it: http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/Fallacies.html

If the client still don't pay, just let it go. There are lot of clients around anyway.

[TEastman]

1/3 down payment at project acceptance.
1/3 due upon completion.
1/3 due upon customer acceptance.

Doing things this way, I know I will receive at least 1/3 of my money no matter what. When I finish the project and bill the next 1/3 I expect timely payment. Final work is not submitted until after I get the second 1/3. Upon finishing the work, I submit the final 1/3 billing. If the client has problems and won't or can't pay the remaining 1/3 then I still retain the digital properties.

Making this very clear in a written contract (AIGA is one source) makes things so much easier. I also bill by the project and not by the hour. If a potential client balks at this agreement, then I probably don't want to work with them anyway.

If you didn't make your terms clear, and didn't collect any money at all, then you are in a tight situation. I would never take a client to court unless it was for something really serious. Word will get out that you took legal action and that will do nothing positive for your business image. I would take this as a lesson learned. Negotiate with your client and get as much money as you can, then write the rest off. If you decide to continue working with this client in the future, make sure you establish your terms in advance, get it in writing, and do the client a favor by being more clear and concise in your billing practices.

Todd

[Mike]

Originally Posted by TEastman

I would never take a client to court unless it was for something really serious. Word will get out that you took legal action and that will do nothing positive for your business image.
Todd

I disagree. Business's take other business's to court all the time. It shows that you are serious about running your business and you expect to be paid for what you do in a business like manner.

Not going after fees owed could produce the image that you are a patsy and others could get you to provide services to them and they will not have to pay you either.

However I will note that if you are going to do the court thing, you had better have not only produced a great product, but you should have the paper work to back up your case.

[TEastman]

Originally Posted by Mike

I disagree. Business's take other business's to court all the time. It shows that you are serious about running your business and you expect to be paid for what you do in a business like manner.

Not going after fees owed could produce the image that you are a patsy and others could get you to provide services to them and they will not have to pay you either.

However I will note that if you are going to do the court thing, you had better have not only produced a great product, but you should have the paper work to back up your case.

That's why my opinion contained the modifier "something really serious." You don't take clients to court every time there is a disagreement. I never said nor implied that you must be a patsy to anyone.

[demandapanda]

She seems willing to pay in parts. I need to ask for a payment schedule so she actually sends the payments. So we'll see. At this point, I mean yeah it's a lot of money for me, but not enough to go to court over.

Does anyone have a resource for copies of contracts that are relevant for retouching jobs?

I'm actually about to post another thread with kind of a whole other question, but semi-related too.