A police state?

[Ed_L]

There are a lot of things popping up in the news about people taking advantage of children lately. There was an article in the local paper this morning that bothered me a little (okay, a lot). There was a substitute teacher in one of our schools who was arrested for battery. He allegedly was rubbing the backs of two boys, with his hand under their shirts. There were no sexual allegations. He lost his job, and his name was in the paper. We have a large family, and I never sexually assulted anyone in my life. But I probably did rub some kid's back with my hand under his shirt at one time or another. My wife and I were involved with scouts, little league, and babe ruth leagues. Sexually assulting a child is in my opinion probably the worst crime imaginable. BUT... are we getting a little carried away with some of the things we do in society? Would it have been better to call the substitute teacher in, and explain that what he did is not acceptable in this day and age? It could even have been put on his work record. This young man has lost his job, he's been arrested, and his name was in the paper. All this even before he appeared in court! If I had been a parent of one of the boys, I would also be concerned. But I think things get carried too far sometimes.

Ed

[G. Couch]

How did they get a charge of battery from him rubbing two kid's backs?

[Ed_L]

That's a mystery to me too.

Ed

[DJ Dubovsky]

Look what a fiasco they made out of the McMartin Pre-school incident years ago. Turned out they lost everything and went to prison and they were innocent. Not only that but it started a chain of events that put alot of innocent adults in prison because of the poorly handled way they got information out of young children. It was the modern version of the Salem Witch hunts. I wish we had a fool proof way of weeding out the preditors from the innocent but we don't.
I agree with you Ed. I can't stand a human preditor of children anymore than you but sometimes I'm afraid to show affection to others because of it could be taken wrong. Some times I think we take things too far and somewhere along the line common sense gets lost.
These days they are out for blood and Catholic Priests are in the line of fire. I'm concerned that alot of good and innocent priests will pay the price for those few evil ones. How do you change that? Media plays a huge part in the way we react to things and those types of stories are money makers for them regardless of who is innocent at the time the story breaks. I don't have an answer. I wish I did. Good thread though. I hope they get to the truth of that story you mentioned. Unfortunately even if he is innocent, he has been tried and convicted already in the media, I fear.
DJ

[Ed_L]

[ Unfortunately even if he is innocent, he has been tried and convicted already in the media, I fear.
DJ [/B][/QUOTE]

That's what upsets me. We had another story in the paper a few days ago about a couple who used their children, ages 4 and 6, in sexually explicit "shows" that they charged other people to watch. Evidently, they had been under investigation for some time before being arrested. They are both in jail under an extremely heavy bond. If found guilty, they could spend the rest of their lives in prison. There was no mention about any of the "patrons" being arrested. I can't understand that one either. If they paid to see something like that, they were surely part of the crime. I wasn't upset to see that they were arrested because of the severity of the case. But the other case could have been simply that the guy likes kids, and for no other reason.

Ed

[G. Couch]

Originally posted by DJ Dubovsky
Media plays a huge part in the way we react to things and those types of stories are money makers for them regardless of who is innocent at the time the story breaks.

Media...that really is the crux of the problem. That and the dumbfounding tendency for much of the public to lap up whatever the media feeds them. sorry...going off on a tangent!

The thing I never understand about situations like this is that the person always seems to lose their job. I thought we lived in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty? In this situation, I understand that it would not be healthy for anyone for him to continue to work...but wouldn't a paid leave of absence be more fair. I guess it comes back to the media thing. The school does not want to be associated with this man, no matter his guilt or innocence.

[chris h]

Much the same over here. I did jury service a year ago where a girl (20 ish) accused a man of various crimes including rape which had happened 4 years before, but no concrete evidence. The 4 year delay had me in doubt as well as a large cash payment to her from our Criminal Injuries Board if her accusations were upheld. To my amazement my fellow jury members swallowed her tale and were going to find him guilty on all counts 10 altogether. In my view he was not guilty on any count as no evidence apart from the girls was heard and all of it doubtful. After 2 days debate in the jury room one other juror and I managed to get him off the rape counts but the other counts stuck as the judge had told us he would accept a 10-2 vote. Even found not guilty on the rape he still went down for 5 years on shaky evidence.

[john_opitz]

Mr. L

You and I would get along pretty good. Love a good debate.
While there is a lot to be said today of civil rights(liberties). And just plain "rights" themselves.
In today's world. They seem to be overlooked to a certain extent. In this case, as the saying goes. Shoot first. Ask or answer questions later.

<<But I probably did rub some kid's back with my hand under his shirt at one time or another>>

Feeling guilty there, Mr. L ?
Mr. L. Your attorney would advise you, not to admit that. That could be and will be used against you in a court of law.
Do you think? You committed battery? Or whatever term you want to call it? What was the reason for you doing that? Was there a reason? And what was your intentions?
Do you see(I hope) where I'm going with this. More so. Yes. It could happen to us,as well.

Let's say. Leaving you out of it........ In the middle of the night. My five year old. Wakes up. For whatever reason. And wants to lay down with me in my bed. And my five year old wants me to hold and comfort him, while he sleeps. And even to rub his back. Does this make me a pervert? Or is it unnatural? Did I committ battery? Child abuse? Or even worse sexual abuse?To some, they might very well, look at it that way. I say. People that think like this. Should take a deep look into themselves, why they think in terms like that. Is it because, what our society thinks today of issues like this? Or something else?............ Guilty until proven innocent? And then, even found innocent. Your still guilty for doing it.

Even though that teacher was not the parent. The intention could have been the same. I don't know the facts of that case. But how many cases like this are similar,and like I just stated. Whether parent or teacher is involved. And their innocent.

You don't even have a chance if your a step parent. Your guilty. Just for the reason,you were divorced.

We have to look at ourselves(our society) for what we are doing today. How we approach things, how and what we're thinking and what we're saying. From both sides.

[Ed_L]

I've always had a good relationship with kids, and if a lawyer told me not to make statements like that, I wouldn't take his advice. But I do see where you're coming from. And I agree that we're all vulnerable to trumped up charges. That's the world we live in, unfortunately. I don't know anything more about the case with the teacher than what I read in the paper. The sad fact is that if he is found not guilty, he will still carry the burden of being accused of something that most businesses and schools do not want to be associated with. Therefore, he could have a real hard time landing a decent job. I think it's time we accept the fact that when a child is touched it does not necessarily mean that there are underlying motives, and that the majority of people are decent people who do not prey on kids. Then there are the other kind...the ones who belong behind bars. Is the teacher one of those? I don't know, but from what I read, I don't see any reason to think so.

Ed

[john_opitz]

I tell you Mr. L. You really get me started. I'll tell you about a case where a friend/neighbor was involved in a C.P.S. case. Where it involved him touching her. Now "touching her" can mean diffrerent things.
The story goes like this. The 13 year old girl wanted to have a birthday(sleep over) party with both boys and girls. And she also wanted to start wearing make-up. The father told her, she was too young to wear makeup and was to not have the boys allowed to stay the night. Well she told her father that if he would not allow those conditions that she would tell the mother, that he touches her. Well the mother did not believe her. Well she(13 year old) did one better.When she went to school, she told her friends, that her father touches her. That's the term she used. "The father touches her." Well the friend she told this to, went to the guidence dept. and told one of the teachers.

Well you know what happened. At the time he was not charged with anything. Until C.P.S. made a full investigation.Well after having the mother (first) interviewed. Then the 13 year old. Then(last) the father. C.P.S. told the parents that the girl needs to see a psychiatrist. They could not and/or would not discuss the interview that they had with the 13 year old.

[DJ Dubovsky]

John brought up a good point. What happens when the child out of spite decides to spread a tale like that? I even remember times when our son was small where he would threaten to call child services on us. Our response was to hand him the phone which stopped that nonsense right there. However, some children will take it that step further as John pointed out. We as a society seem to believe that children don't lie. When in fact children learn the value of a good lie at a very early age. How small is a child that openly lies about not stealing from the cookie jar but is wearing the crumbs on his chin? I would say pre-school age.

This whole thread has a striking resemblance to the Salem Witch hunt in the early 16 to 1700s. If a neighbor harbored a grudge all they had to do was claim to have witnessed you performing witchcraft and you were as good as dead.
I remember tales in history in the early 1900s on up thruough the 50s and 60s if you wanted to label someone for persecution all you had to do was say they were communists. Now days try calling the FBI and say you have a terrorist living next door if you want to ruin someone quickly or a known child molester. Unlike the witch hunts Pedophiles and terrorists do exist but have our ways of dealing with these fears changed in the last 2 to 300 years? Or are we still hunting in angry mobs calling out for blood except our monsters have changed names? Something to think about. Are we so quick to wipe out the monsters that we don't take the time to find out if they really are monsters?
DJ

[john_opitz]

History does repeat itself. Doesn't it?