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Certified Contract Proofing on a budget!

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  • #16
    Re: Certified Contract Proofing on a budget!

    Why would you convert to a CMYK and then, of all things, back?
    Because now that sRGB document has no out of gamut colors for conversion to CMYK, where as before, there was and if not converted correctly, more color issues. It's simply a way to hand off tagged RGB data that is less likely to be screwed up by someone doing the conversion.
    Why not just give them the Adobe RGB and be done with it.
    Lots of possible OOG colors. Handing people who don't have a clue about color management Adobe RGB (1998) is a bad idea.
    Retouching is much more interesting. Prepress is for dullards these days.
    Yup and if you never have to deal with prepress, you're lucky. Just retouch. If you do have to hand off files with people in prepress who might hose the data, and you're in a possible positon to get blamed, anything you can do to mitigate conversion problems is helpful.
    It's not a "recipe for disaster". It's how it's done every week and month for thousands and thousands of images.
    Much of it output poorly or even worse, much of that blamed upon people outside that prepress shop who handled that data prior to output. That's WHY contract proofs exist. Been done this way for decades and decades.
    Sorry, but this whole contract proof thing is just urinating in the wind.
    If you're the person responsible for the color, or if you're in a position to be blamed for the color due to your hand in the work, that's a foolish attitude. The reason we have contract proofs is so someone is contractually responsible for problems on press. If you have deep pockets and are OK paying for more press work, go for it man. To suggest that a contract proof isn't useful shows some ignorance on your part and contract proofs are produced every week and month with thousands of images.

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    • #17
      Re: Certified Contract Proofing on a budget!

      Originally posted by andrewrodney View Post
      Because now that sRGB document has no out of gamut colors for conversion to CMYK, where as before, there was and if not converted correctly, more color issues. It's simply a way to hand off tagged RGB data that is less likely to be screwed up by someone doing the conversion.

      Lots of possible OOG colors. Handing people who don't have a clue about color management Adobe RGB (1998) is a bad idea.

      Yup and if you never have to deal with prepress, you're lucky. Just retouch. If you do have to hand off files with people in prepress who might hose the data, and you're in a possible positon to get blamed, anything you can do to mitigate conversion problems is helpful.

      Much of it output poorly or even worse, much of that blamed upon people outside that prepress shop who handled that data prior to output. That's WHY contract proofs exist. Been done this way for decades and decades.

      If you're the person responsible for the color, or if you're in a position to be blamed for the color due to your hand in the work, that's a foolish attitude. The reason we have contract proofs is so someone is contractually responsible for problems on press. If you have deep pockets and are OK paying for more press work, go for it man. To suggest that a contract proof isn't useful shows some ignorance on your part and contract proofs are produced every week and month with thousands of images.
      OK, before we go any further here, I have to call you on something. Where have you worked in prepress, and how many of these "contract proofs" have you made and handed off to printers?

      I am going to wave something at you and repeat, again, that I worked prepress for a long time for the biggest magazine publisher in America, and then went off and worked prepress in a very large and modern printing plant in upstate NY that printed millions of magazines a year for said publisher and others. I have been around color management a few times. And, if some photographer or retoucher showed up at that plant, or even the creative department of any of that publisher's magazines with a "contract proof", telling someone that the final product had to match it, he or she would have been politely laughed out the door, unless they were some ungodly superstar like Annie Lebovitz or Walter Looss. But, really, even they are just humored, and allowed a color show or two. Press time is too expensive to let their type screw with it.

      "If you do have to hand off files with people in prepress who might hose the data, and you're in a possible positon to get blamed, anything you can do to mitigate conversion problems is helpful."

      That's their problem. It's their damn job! There really isn't much else to do these days, it's all automated anyway, but they still need good eyes to get color right. You have no responsibilities after delivery. You can't!
      I have been around plenty of post mortems about bad color. Never had I heard, "let's get that photographer/retoucher!". Nope, it was us, the prepress guys who caught it. It was our job.

      "If you're the person responsible for the color, or if you're in a position to be blamed for the color due to your hand in the work, that's a foolish attitude. The reason we have contract proofs is so someone is contractually is responsible for problems on press."

      What can I say, other than you are a total fool to sign a contract like that for final color. Good luck with that.

      Do you make any money from that arrangement? Like enough to cover your butt when the stuff hits the fan down the line, and you're on to the next thing? I would charge a ton for that. And, even then, look for insurance to cover my butt. And pray.

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      • #18
        Re: Certified Contract Proofing on a budget!

        A basic question before this goes any further. What is this "contract proof"? Who is the "contract" between? What parties? What is the responsibility, and to whom? How does that work?
        Benny Profane
        Senior Member
        Last edited by Benny Profane; 01-12-2014, 10:10 PM.

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        • #19
          Re: Certified Contract Proofing on a budget!

          A basic question before this goes any further. What is this "contract proof"? Who is the "contract" between? What parties? What is the responsibility, and to whom? How does that work?
          That you have to ask such a basic question after your last rant is pretty funny. Or that you ask about my background which is perfectly transparent if you click on my bio here, as much as can be pasted, check out my web page. There's a real URL there.Yet yours says:

          About Benny Profane (that really your name?)
          Location
          third stone from the sun
          Occupation
          Pixel Ape
          I was shooting for the likes of Apple, GTE, Forbes, Disney and Microsoft in the 80's and early 90's, much of it digitally (I started with Photoshop 1.0.7). I ran what was called a service bureau after that for about 4 years. Know what that is Benny? Since that time, from 1994 on, you can read about my work with digital color by doing some very easy and basic research about me, again all here to see, very transparent.

          http://www.digitaldog.net/about/

          To answer your question, all you have to do is read the URL's I provided earlier.

          Look, Beeny Profane or whoever you are or want us to think you are, if you wish to work without any contract proof with a print shop, by all means take the risk. If you feel a $5000+ an hour press is the place to be making color changes, great, your money. Don't advise others to be so foolish, especially when you don't even understand basic nomenclature (What is this "contract proof"? Who is the "contract" between? What parties? What is the responsibility, and to whom? How does that work?). This isn't a term or a process I made up, rather a process that's been used for decades.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prepress_proofing
          http://www.swop.org/certification/systemlist.asp
          http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/proof...tractproof.htm
          http://www.fogra.org/en/fogra-fograc...-creation.html

          You asked about the conversion to CMYK (heck, TR001/SWOP V2 is fine, you know what I'm referring to?) back to sRGB and I answered why and how. You want to know what a contract proof is, I've explained it long ago, do the basic research. More links above this paragraph.

          Maybe on the 3rd stone you reside, the processes are different, print shops take pefect care to output the color and everyone is always happy such that no contractual proof between customer and printer is ever necessary. On the plant I live on, it's done all the time. It might be called a Kodak Approval, or a 3M PressMatch, or a Chromalin (god forbid) or even an Epson ink jet. Doesn't matter, what does is two parties, print buyer and printer agree to the color before ink hits paper on press. And then ink on press closely matches (within say a deltaE 2000 of 6 or less) matches the proof. Understood?

          Hopefully we're done here. Because you're wasting my time.

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          • #20
            Re: Certified Contract Proofing on a budget!

            Ok, I'll swing back at you and tell you I was a photo assistant in NYC for eight years before working for the largest publisher in America in prepress. I have been a high end retoucher for nine years. I know this business. And never, never, have I heard of a photographer or retoucher, who I assume is the audience here, handing a proof to the final printer or client to match, unless it was a photographer who hired a printer directly, and kept complete control of the final product with, well, I suppose, a contract. But, believe me, señor, any printer would be charging quite a tidy sum for that service, or wouldn't be in business very long.

            Of course there are proofs made and sent to printers every day. I make proofs daily, now converted to Gracol, in my day to day work for the company I work for right now. BUT THOSE AREN'T THE FINAL PROOFS. They're for the designer's eyes, like all in that process, and, when they say fine, groovy, my job is officially over. The final proofs are output by our prepress dept, who have a day to day relationship with our printers. Those proofs are what you may be calling "contract proofs". They certainly are beyond the photographer's or retoucher's or even creative department's control. That's the dirty facts of printing. It's expensive, so the last thing you want is so called experts or creative types running up costs even more.

            Yeah, I saw your bio. You consult. Fine. World's full of them. Seminars are profitable these days, it seems. But, you didn't answer my question. How many times have you sent one of these "contract proofs" off to a printer? In what capacity did you act to assure the final printing matched this proof. Under who's authority, or, the ultimate authority, who's dime? Who was paying for all of this? Were you the publisher? Editor? What?

            You really have to get out of the rarified air of "consulting" before you try to impress someone who has actually been in the trenches for forty years. You've been around way too many photographers and creative types who really don't know squat about what happens to their stuff after they hand it off to whomever. I was that whomever, so don't try to do that with me. I know better. You're doing some people a lot of disservice by telling them they a have some sort of control over their images besides a little Lightroom and Photoshop work before they leave the nest. But, hey, it probably makes you money, so, what do I know. Sounds easy, especially if it brings you to exotic places. Have fun.

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            • #21
              Re: Certified Contract Proofing on a budget!

              Ok, I'll swing back at you and tell you I was a photo assistant in NYC for eight years before working for the largest publisher in America in prepress. I have been a high end retoucher for nine years. I know this business.
              Sure you do, that explains the lack of transparency. That explains your question “What is this "contract proof"? Who is the "contract" between? What parties? What is the responsibility, and to whom? How does that work?” For all we know, you’re a pimply faced teenager who’s daddy runs a quick print ship in upper Utah. Wow, a real NY photo assistant? Damn, before I got a degree in Photography at Art Center, I was only an LA assistant (for a couple years, I found actually shooting jobs for clients a better avenue).

              And never, never, have I heard of a photographer or retoucher, who I assume is the audience here, handing a proof to the final printer or client to match, unless it was a photographer who hired a printer directly, and kept complete control of the final product with, well, I suppose, a contract.
              I’m sure there is lots you’ve never heard of after this series of posts!

              I never said anything about a photographer or retoucher handing a contract proof to the final printer. I said that group either needs someone in the chain to do so OR have a paper contract that voids any liability for anything that goes wrong on press that they may be blamed for. Neither did the OP. He asked about a product that until yesterday you didn’t know about, a contract proof. He asked if it could be done on an Epson (it can). Before you even came here, I told this audience that anything that is contractually agreed upon by two or more parties can be considered a contract proof (or do I have to teach you what the term ‘contract’ means?). I used the term Print buyer and printer. If the photographer or retoucher is the print buyer, so be it. I as a photographer had many ad’s printed on press for promotion, I was in the Black Book! I was the print buyer and yes, I had contact proofs done every time.

              What part about the first post I made don’t you understand other than the term contract proof?
              Anyone that pays for press work without a contract proof could be in a very expensive and dangerous situation if there's a mismatch.
              And yes, you do make a lot of assumptions! Here we agree.

              I make proofs daily, now converted to Gracol, in my day to day work for the company I work for right now.
              I see you also don’t understand what you just wrote too. GRACoL what? It’s like saying “I work in RGB.” GRACoL 2006? GRACoL 2013? G7? Maybe dad can assist <G>.

              Yeah, I saw your bio. You consult. Fine. World's full of them. Seminars are profitable these days, it seems. You really have to get out of the rarified air of "consulting" before you try to impress someone who has actually been in the trenches for forty years.
              I figured you’d go there. In your failed attempt to understand what’s being discussed and in my aim to educate you, you now want to bring up that I consult and do seminars that in some way dismisses the facts I’ve presented to you. The facts you have conveniently ignored. So you hide behind an alias yet tell us all your experience, then bring in a straw man to hide your lack of understanding on the subject. You’re a real legend in your own mind Dr. Profane.

              But, you didn't answer my question. How many times have you sent one of these "contract proofs" off to a printer?
              Over the last 25+ years, I’ve lost count. Perhaps hundreds. But you’re asking the wrong question of course. How many I made isn’t important, how many are made daily in just the US is the question you should be asking, once you understand what a contract proof is. I provided some URL’s. Do your homework.

              You're doing some people a lot of disservice by telling them they a have some sort of control over their images besides a little Lightroom and Photoshop work before they leave the nest.
              I never said that. But it you sir who is doing the audience here a disservice. And I suspect by now, most if not all know this. I’ve answered all your questions. Hopefully you learned a trick about funneling the gamut of a tagged RGB doc into a CMYK gamut. Hopefully you now know what a contract proof is. Hopefully others reading your posts see you hide behind a persona, you like to argue with people who know more than you do while ignoring the fact’s they provide only to show your ignorance.

              Get in the last word Penny or Benny, it will only illustrate you’re a frustrated individual who needs to argue without any salient points to back up his POV. Somone who asks a lot of questions that are not well thought out and needs to inflate his bkgnd without an ounce of transparency. And it appears at this point in the discussion kind of foolish little child. The floor is yours.

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              • #22
                Re: Certified Contract Proofing on a budget!

                Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

                Bye. I have to go check a few proofs.

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