Looking for some public opinion

[grafx]

I am not trying to get readers or anything, but I was wondering if some of you good folks could do a search on posts under my name and tell me if I'm for or against pageant kids/parents. One of my individual clients found some of my posts and interpreted them as meaning I am against pageants and their practices. The client finds it offensive that I would have posts in a forum that was bashing pageants etc., yet accept money for doing the retouches. Please tell me If I was bashing or going on about the retouching aspect of it. Perhaps I am reading my own thoughts into the text I've typed. I am completely at a loss and feel like I've been attacked. Terrible feeling.

[DannyRaphael]

So there's no doubt in your mind, you definitely have been attacked, most likely due to common cause of misunderstanding.

Studies have shown that when people communicate, less than 10% of the intended message (the point, if you will) comes from the spoken or written words and more than 90% of the meaning comes from non-verbal cues like body language and voice inflection.

Since there's no possibility of verbal cues or voice inflection in forums and e-mails (except emoticoms like , that "missing" 90%+ of meaning must be "made up" by the reader... and it's not at all uncommon for one to come to the wrong conclusion.

What you "wrote" and "meant" may not count for much. What the reader "read into it" and ass-u-me-d is what got you into trouble.

~Danny~

[Gary Richardson]

Hi, I've read through a few of your posts, and the only one I've found that could be misinterpreted were on an original post by Doosume 04-05-2004.

If read out of context, and selectively it could be thought that you were against pageant queens.

I quote " I agree they don't look like real children, but most are impressive for what they are (whatever that might be).

For someone who has very thin skin, and is feeling very defensive, it could be thought that you were saying their child was not normal.

I know this is totally out of context to your other comments on this thread, but people will select what they want to see.

In my opinion, the whole concept of pageant queens is not natural. Children are not toys to dress up and parade to the world, and thank god it only happens in the USA.

[Flora]

I also read some of your posts and got to the point Gary mentioned.... With that comment you were simply stating a fact ....

The client finds it offensive that I would have posts in a forum that was bashing pageants etc.,

Disagreeing with, not bashing .... I think this would happen in any forum anywhere.... that's the beauty of humans ... we all have different opinions ....
I just wander if everybody in the family or friends circle of that client of yours blindly agrees with and approves of 'pageants and their practices' .... If not ... will the disagreeing parties be banned or executed on the spot?

The only things a client can expect are jobs well done and reliability and the only thing that should be attacked is the lack of one or both of these qualities ... for the rest, you are entitled to your opinions just as your clients and everybody else are!

[grafx]

Agreeing to disagree

Been having emailed conversations w/client. I think it will boil down to agreeing to disagree. The post she had problems with was this one:

"I personally would not tan a child, slather on make-up, or bleach their hair, but as a professional, if a client asks me to do a pageant "glam" I ask how "glam" do they want it. I'd rather do it digitally then have the parents make them up like Tammy Faye and snap a picture. I try to keep the look of a porcelain doll, or even more natural when possible. I often find myself digitally removing the make-up originally put on the child and evening out the tone. Re-drawing the eyelashes is generally a requirement since the mascara is so clumpy. My advice to parents is to take pictures with just natural looking kids, then if you want it done have a retoucher do the rest."

This is the one that she said was offensive and that I was speaking against pageants. I think DannyRaphael was right in those stats. What bothered me the most was that she didn't go to me, instead she when to the photographer, who has no foundation where the conversation came from. If I didn't know the photographer well and she me, it could have been a big case of damage control.

A lesson in humanity I guess. I personally need to learn to be more thick-skinned, but when something I said, typed etc is taken out of context and I hear it second hand it was rather upsetting.

[Doug Nelson]

I've heard of Googleing potential dates before, but potential retouchers?

In case she ever considers hiring me, I'll state right here that I feel it's a mild form of child abuse and akin to pedophilia.

[Chip Hildreth]

Awwww, come on Doug, don't sugar coat it! We can't go having OPINIONS exchanged around here, now can we?

Seriously, I read through your posts and hesiatated at the one you mention and thin skinned folks came to mind. The fact that it was well out of context exacerbates things a bit too. I was in on those threads, which were help requests, and the people involved in pagent work were on the defensive after having their ethics questioned. Your statement reflects that by explaining your personal attitude and separating it from your professional attitude. Nearly as I can tell, you're a pro retoucher with a pagent work as your market niche.

I just finished restoring some photos a producing a political campaign brochure for a guy who I didn't vote for. I liked him just fine but we didn't see eye to eye on a few political issues. I took his money and I voted for someone else. Does that make me a bad guy?

This gets a little off the subject but for some reason I feel compelled to say it.

I shared my views about little girls and big makeup and exhibition of same in another pagent related thread. They are conflicting and I don't have a pat answer to resolve them.
I will state without conflict that I do imaging work, as a professional... FOR THE MONEY. I've been a business owner for going on 15 years now and, while I believe it is crucial to first do what you love, if you decide to do it professionally, do it for the money. That is not, in my opinion, a breach of ethics. Good, bad or indifferent, in the USA, that is how you survive unless you have a trust fund somewhere.

I'm an idealist at heart but become very realistic when I sit down to pay bills.

With that said, I will now go and make that donation to RetouchPro I've been wanting to make.

Chip

[grafx]

I now know why I joined this forum

I LOVE YOU GUYS! (and gals too of course)

It is a terrible thing when you get so exhausted with the little battles that you begin to wonder if it is all worth it. Then you trudge thru, pick up the tablet tool, pop in an audiobook and you're going again. Sometimes I wish you could do business without the personal contact part...LOL!

I thank everyone for their wonderful posts. Not only helpful, but objective as well. This place is the bomb and Chip, you SERIOUSLY crack me up!

[Ed_L]

"I personally would not tan a child, slather on make-up,

My personal opinion is that it is a sin for children to be used like that. If I were of the opposite opinion, I probably would have been upset by using the word "slather". But I totally agree with you. That's exactly what it is. As has been pointed out, when there are bills to pay, they have to be paid. Only thge person doing the work can decide if doing certain things is going past the line of ethics.

Ed

[Janet Petty]

my two cents worth on pageants

I live in an area of the country where pageants are the "in" thing for children. I do not personally support them; and I absolutely refused to let my children become involved with them when they were small.

I think it is pathetic to think that the only self esteem a child can have is how physically beautiful they are. If a parent wants to show off their children, I believe they should be teaching them respect, honor, integrity, esteem, manners, and inner beauty--teach them how to be happy within themselves. That way they will be an honor to their parents in a true sense. They will know who they are and walk in the beauty of self confidence. Sadly, most do not get it. They will rent a costume and get a child's hair all done up, dress them up like Madame Alexander dolls and parade them around...ugh! (The cost of renting a dress, getting the child's hair done; etc. is astronomical.)

Lastly, in the world we live in, we must recognize that others have the same rights to choices and consequences that we have. We cannot legislate their behavior unless it steps into societally unaccepted norms and the law is broken.

I would photograph a pageant. My stomach would turn at the very thought of what those parents/grandparents are doing to their children (living, breathing people not dolls); but I would just because that person involved would want those memories. I would respect their right to be part of a pageant.

[happiegirl]

From the outside looking in.........My two cents

I am a pageant mother and I realize that from the outside looking in pageants can look terrible to outsiders. My daughter loves doing pageants. She is constantly asking to do one. I was watching TV one day and they had a show about dress up birthday parties for little girls. The little girls had make up girly dresses on. I am sure that none of you are against this. There is thousands of dress up toys out there for little girls. Why? Because, some little girls love them. That is what pageants are about for them. I think pageants have a very bad reputation. I mean at some little league games pageants get in fist fights. I have never seen or even hear of anything like this at a pageant. There are plenty of articles you can read that talk about how terrible pageant are. What about child sports, dancing, music, and gymnastics? Is it ok to put your child in sports do it because it is masculine? But it's not ok to encourage poise, beauty and confidence? Is it because some of these traits are seen as feminine? One of the biggest fears people have is talking in front of people. I mean this fear is right up there with the fear of death. Pageant kids grow up comfortable in front of a crowd. They learn that they are beautiful and important weather they win or lose. They have a blast at pageant meeting all the other contestants. I do wish that you could use natural photos in pageant though. I think the price of everything is getting out of control. There are some pageant moms out there that take their child’s hobby way too far. Some have poor sportsmanship and do push their children into it. I would ask you though if you thought these types of things didn't go on in other children’s competitions.

By the way grafx, I did not find your post offensive. I think it must have been a misinterpretation of what you were trying to say. Words are like that.


Sorry for any misspellings.

[DannyRaphael]

re: But it's not ok to encourage poise, beauty and confidence?

Are you saying the pageants to which you refer place absolutely zero emphasis on photos, makeup, clothes, hair, jewelry, shoes, etc. as part of any judging criteria and truly promote "inner beauty," poise and confidence?

What's the ultimate goal or "prize" for participating in these pageants?

~Danny~

p.s. Don't worry about the spelling. Einstein was lously at it himself.

[happiegirl]

Inner Beauty

Of course pageants are about facial beauty, clothes, shoes, hair, and all of that. There is an interview portion of some pageants. Here contestants are judged on personality ect. When someone is beautiful inside it just shines though. I can't explain it. It's like trying to explain why a flower is beautiful. I wish we could use natural photos for pageants. Unfortunately, natural photos don't normally do well against the fully retouched photos. Clothes are important in most pageants, but not all pageants. They are important in ice skating and dancing as well. The cost of pageant clothing can be unbelievable but some people have the money for it. If they have the money to spend, it is theirs to do with as they please.

Everyone has different reasons for entering pageants. I know a lot of older girls that grew up doing pageants. They aren’t shy at all. They are self-confident and aren’t afraid to talk in front of anyone. Good communication skills are very important in life. This is what I want for my daughter. Plus, pageants are lots of fun for her. I know there are probably other things I could do for her, but this is what I have chosen. What is the ultimate goal of children’s sports, dancing, and gymnastics?

[roger_ele]

Happiegirl,

Congratulations on expressing yourself so well - I will try to remember that some of the people in the pagaent community share your well rounded views. I have had a prejudice for bueaty contests of all ages for as long as I can remember - fueled by the surreal caracature that I find in the contestants. I am a Pro Photographer and have turned down beauty pagaent jobs over the years.

No one doubts that there are good people and motivations in the pageant world. There are some of us that will probably always twitch and some that will always enjoy it, but thanks for the insight - my views have softened.

From one who also suffers from spelling challenges,
Roger

[dslinger]

Happiegirl, I hear what you are saying about inner beauty. Perhaps that would be more apparent to me, and others who view children's pageants with some distress, if the girls were not made up to look like adults. It bothers me to see a 6 year old made up to look 20 years old.

I would love to see the day when girls are encouraged to be without makeup, hairspray, dieting and elaborate clothing to be considered beautiful. As the mother of a 16 year old girl, I am conscious of her struggle to fit in and be seen as beautiful. The burden on girls and women to be attractive is already large, and I see pageants (both children's and adult's) as exacerbating it. Exterior beauty is an accident, inner beauty is acquired.

I know you are not abusing your daughter, and I know that you are encouraging her to find her talents and her strengths so that she can see all the beauty she possesses as a human. That's all we can do as parents to keep the concept of beauty in perspective.

Grafx, it's a fine line we walk when working for clients (in any aspect) between saying what is true for us and keeping the peace to keep our jobs. I agree with those that posted here- it's all a matter of individual perception and there's nothing you can do about misinterpretation. You will never say the "right" thing for everyone.

I personally didn't interpret your words as slamming pageants. However, if there is a person already wondering if they are doing the right thing, they are going to feel defensive about it. IMHO, if someone is confident they are right, there's no need for them to worry about anyone else's opinion of what they do.