my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to CMYK

[nadaman]

I am a commercial photographer doing editorial work for magazines. I've spent the last month trying to fix a very odd problem that I've not encountered before. I use an iMac 24in w/Apple Display, OS10.5.8, 4G Ram, NVIDIA GeForce8800GS video card. Using Lacie 324 LCD monitor (with calibration puck and software) as primary display.
This is a new work station bought new in December 2008. All software is current and updated.
Clients want CMYK files for printer.
I do most work in Adobe 1998 RGB using CS4 (Design Standard) and convert to US web coated (SWOPE) v2 for final to client. Using the "convert to profile" command to change color modes, I observe that my caucasian skintones become noticeably redder. An H/S adjustment layer @ (reds...+8 hue & -16 sat, yellows...+7 hue with Master @ 0) seems to get it close to the RGB.
Here's the kicker: I only notice this red cast on my Lacie monitor, and in CS4 only. If I use the color picker and read the numerical values, there is very little change between the RGB and CMYK file - which is what I would expect and am used to.
If I move the image(s) over to my Apple display the red color cast is not visible. If I convert the file using CS3, no cast is visible on either monitor. Duplicating the file and converting one to CMYK, leaving the other in RGB, then using Preview or ColorSync (Mac) apps to open the file, no color cast is visible in either monitor. This seems to be specific to 324/CS4 only.
I have tried dumping the PS preference file and restarting. I have just received a new replacement monitor from LaCie. Red cast is still there. Adobe has just switched its support to India & doesn't seem to be going out of their way to help. My case number sat untouched for 3 days after loading to their FTP. It was only after I called that someone took a look at it and I can't get through to my support portal to update my case. To say I'm a bit frustrated is really understating things. Looking for some help and perhaps direction in solving this issue.
Please see jpg attachment - its a screen grab with both files to give an idea as to what I see on my 324.

[Markzebra]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

Sounds like you've wasted a lot of time without understanding some basic things about monitor displays…

Have you calibrated either monitor? All accurate color on screen is impossible without monitor calibration. There's a reason for this: Photoshop uses the monitor profile (you create that when you profile it) to display all colors. Without an accurate profile, displaying colors is a shot in the dark.

A monitor profile is a description of the full monitor gamut and white point. Its created by products such as Spyder, EyeOne, and Huey, which READ the output with optical devices, and create a profile. Your two monitors, the Apple and the LaCie, will both have different gamut (range of colors) and neutral - and Photoshop needs a description of this, so images displayed on both will look the same.

Most sofware (web browsers and such) do not use this system, that's why colors normally appear different, on these.

Now the DOCUMENT profiles that you have assigned (Adobe RGB, SWOP CMYK) can again only be displayed accurately if Photoshop knows how your monitor behaves. NEVER use document profiles to attach to your monitor, they are a completely different type of profile.

[TommyO]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

This seems to be specific to 324/CS4 only.

Opinion 1 (I often have more than one )
Actually, based upon the information you have provided, I would say specific to CS4 and the Mac OS. This is not being reported in the Windows OS. There was quite a bit of rework done by Adobe to accommodate some of the color profile support under the Mac OS. So, I would suggest working directly with Adobe. The LaCie may have a bad profile which is just exaggerating it, which is good, this is how we find stuff.

Since your color picker indicates the values to be within expected values, and the other monitors provide a truer visible indication, then trust your conversions are Ok and proceed. Obviously, you will have to work in AdobeRGB, only converting at the end, proof on a different version of PS or a different monitor.

Opinion 2
That thing of it only showing funny on the LaCie bothers me. I would do two things. (1) Go into the Colorsync utility, look under Devices, Displays... and see if the LaCie is using the profile it generated from its last calibration. If not, problem may be solved. If it is... move to (2) The last calibration could have gone wrong. Do it over, under controlled conditions. Then retest.

[nadaman]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

[QUOTE=Markzebra;239582]Sounds like you've wasted a lot of time without understanding some basic things about monitor displays…
Thank you for your reply.
I'll agree with you on the "wasted a lot of time" part, my mother wanted me to be a lawyer.
My 324 shipped with a calibrator and software. Upon first setting the monitor hardware, I created a profile. I was also able to get a hold of Lacie Blue Eye PE software which normally ships with the 500-700 series monitors. This version allows one to test their profiles according to UGRA DACT specifications. My profile for the 324 passed. I used the same calibrator on the Apple display though I can't set luminance or gamma but I figure I at least
got it neutral and then visually adjusted the brightness to match the calibrated 324. I think I did everything by the book. If I missed anything please (anyone) let me know.
I should also add that my profile and reports were forwarded to Lacie for analysis. I've yet to get any answers but as a good customer relations gesture, they did send me another new monitor for comparison. No change on the red cast issue though, possibly the monitor(s) is/are not defective.
please see pdf attachment.

[nadaman]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

thanks for your reply TommyO, have to say it bothers me more!
- checked display preferences and the proper/current profile is activated.
- this profile was tested and passed UGRA DACT specs using Lacie blue eye PE software.
- have tried a few different profiles - all show red cast.
- work in pretty dim room with no direct light on monitors.

In your opinion, what's the best way to approach Adobe. I do have an active case open but I'm feeling ignored. That's why I posted on this forum. I've never done tech support by web with Adobe. Adobe seems to be in a state of transition right now.
Any direction would be greatly appreciated. thanks.

[Markzebra]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

Ok, your problems are clearly to do with an incorrect monitor profile. Don't get side tracked its nothing to with Adobe OR CS4 or your mac color sync. Adobe customer service is absolutely useless at the moment and its not worth wasting your time

The Lacie MAY have internal settings OVERIDING the calibration, from what you have said now that occurs to me.

I was also able to get a hold of Lacie Blue Eye PE software

I don't get it - you say just the SOFTWARE? you mean the PE device and the software surely?

I had experience with LaCies displaying with a Magenta bias before too, its just their natural state - the answer is just a question of calibrating properly. The Apple display is controlled with software - calibrating both displays with the same device should produce an accurate match. Are you using them as dual monitors, or attached to different machines?

[nadaman]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

Hello Markzebra,

LaCie Blue Eye Pro PE...... PE stands for "Proof Edition" & is part of the software name. Difference between this software and the one that ships with the 324 is under "Test & Report" button. You can test your profile against UGRA specs to see if it passes with PE version.

A puck or "Measuring Device", as Lacie calls it, is attached externally to your monitor, lined up with software target (by clicking "Calibration" button) and reads a series of targets to make your profile which you name and save.

Your saved profile is loaded/activated using Blue Eye software under "select profile" button. Profile is loaded this way every time upon start up.

Upon using the 324 for the 1st time, you access the monitor hardware menu by pushing with your finger on the lower right of the monitor frame. Here you can set your color temperature, gamma, etc. Once that is set, one uses the Blue Eye software and puck to update profiles periodically.

I can't see how any internal Lacie settings would be overriding the calibration. Please clarify.

The Apple display has very limiting adjustments based on your eyes making judgments on targets. Can't remember the last time I went there.
Lacie has a puck for more consistent results over time. Lacie also displays a larger gamut than Apple.

Yes both monitors are running from the same computer. iMac guts are located in the monitor. No cpu.

Magenta bias is not the issue. I could live with that if it was consistent. I am only experiencing this color shift with CS4 on the 324 Lacie and only comparing RGB and CMYK conversion of the same file.
See image sent in 1st post. That is a screen grab of both RGB & a copy converted to CMYK. Both on the 324, one on top of another.
If moved as is to Apple display, red cast disappears in CMYK copy.
If the same grab is opened in CS3, red cast disappears in CMYK copy.

please see 2 attachments:
CS3 lacie.jpg is the same file as in the 1st post, opened in CS3.
lacie interface.jpg is Blue Eye interface & packaging.

[Markzebra]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

Do your CS3 and CS4 color settings match exactly, including CMYK profile and rendering intent, with all the checkboxes the same? If its true that the conversion is thrown off in some way then it may be related to this. Color management has not changed in CS4 in any way, so same settings should produce same results.

To investigate this - you can measure points with the eyedropper in the CS3 and CS4 converted images to make sure that the conversion happened correctly. Save down the converted CMYK files and open them both in either CS3 or 4, and see if the VALUES are the same. This will tell us whether its a profiling issue, or merely a color conversion issue.

You should also obviously never use your monitor profiles at all in the Color Settings dialog.

[nadaman]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

Thanks MarkZebra for your interest & hope your not a Man U supporter. What will they do without Rinaldo?

The plot thickens!

please see 2 jpegs of color settings & convert to profile setting talk windows,
CS3 vs CS4.
Only difference I could see was the extra box below "use Dither..." in CS4 talk window:
"Compensate for Scene-referred Profiles" refers to matching color management with After Effects software. But for the hell of it I disabled it and tried my test again to no avail. Red cast still exists using CS4 on 324 (beginning to sound catchy that "CS4 on 324", don't you think? Makings of a song perhaps).

Barring that, I think they are the same. Did I miss anything? Please check.
I agree with no monitor profiles in color settings.
I'm new to this forum and can't load in anything bigger that 100k.
I can do a screen grab with targets and give values if you like.

Is there any particular areas that can help you determine the profile vs conversion issue? Please download, identify, & mail image back to me.
Would you like a CS3 vs CS4 comparison. let me know.

Want to say thank you again because you are forcing me to cross my T's and dot my i's. This is important when presenting boring tech stuff like this.
I hope we are at least providing someone with a worthy lesson of some kind.

In the spirit of keeping my sense of humor as I'm loosing my mind, if anyone knows Thomas Knoll personally, who is known to surf forums in what little free time he has, please direct him here. His expertise is needed.
tanks.

[Markzebra]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

Those color settings are precisely the same. So the CMYK VALUES in the file must be the same whether you converted them in CS3 or CS4. Provided they were both converted from the same Adobe RGB file, with those settings. That brings us back to monitor profiles.

Running out of suggestions, something is wrong here - from what you are saying it seems to be that CS4 is for some reason picking up a different monitor profile than CS3. And whats more curious just applying it to the CMYK file. Everything Photoshop displays is filtered though your monitor profile, so it needs to be correct.

It may be that your dual monitors is creating a confusion of some sort, check 'arrangement', in displays System Preferences - and check AGAIN that 'color' is set to pick up the correct profiles. And that your Color Sync application is picking up the correct profiles also.

One last experiment, I can suggest try Proofing the images - View/proof setup and choose 'monitor RGB' - what does this look like? In both CS and 4. This strips out any document profiles and displays the numbers directly, so it will be a good way to see for certain whether its a monitor profiling issue.

If this doesn't help its a really tricky one - ask your question here …*http://forums.adobe.com/community/ph...shop_macintosh

Thomas Knoll doesn't work on Photoshop anymore, only Camera RAW. All the color management stuff came in in Photoshop 5 after his time and refined in 6.

[pixelzombie]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

i'm curious why you use "convert to profile" instead of a standard conversion to cmyk...

[nadaman]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

hi MarkZebra:

"And that your Color Sync application is picking up the correct profiles also."

I'm aware of "Display Preferences" which I use to set the Apple display profile.
I use the Lacie Blue Eye software to activate the profile for Lacie.

I'm not aware of using Color Sync app for profiles.

So I opened Color Sync application and asked it to verify my profiles.
It told me that 11 were in need of repair. All were related to my Epson 1280 printer, two of which were custom profiles - that I had made - to better match my present LCD monitor and an old CRT to prints from said printer.
I then did a repair which repaired these two profiles only, others could not be fixed.
Is there more I should know about Color Sync app on Mac?

Displays, Arrangement, and selected profiles all have been re-checked and all are good.

Open the same file in CS3 & CS4 RGB mode. Line the up one on top of other. Have both files big on screen.
On iMac display files look identical when comparing CS 3 & 4 in either soft proof on (with Monitor RGB) or off.
When comparing Monitor RGB to soft proof off (command Y), again both are identical in that there is a loss of saturation in the reds which makes the skin tone more yellow and slightly flatter.
On Lacie 324 again both look identical - flipping between CS3 & 4.
in soft proof off only.
When applying Monitor RGB, CS3 looses the red saturation which makes the skin tone more yellow and slightly flatter.
In CS4 this change seems more intense. Comparing Monitor RGB soft proof mode between CS3 & 4 is exhibiting the same difference that I would see
between Monitor RGB and soft proof off in CS3 alone.
CS4 version is noticeably redder than CS3.
I was told by Lacie that the 324 will show a wider gamut in the reds and greens as compared to Apple.
I've done a screen grab that shows this difference. Grab was done on Lacie monitor using CS3 & 4, soft proof off/on.
hope I done everything correctly. I'm including this grab to try to make my descriptions less subjective. I realize browsers etc. will change colors but at least the differences between the images remains.
thanks.

[nadaman]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

Hey PixelZombie, I did because someone who I thought knew more than me, told me to do it. I used to go to Image-Mode and change from there. But when I think about it using Convert to Profile does give you the option to specifically change within the mode you are changing to (web coated or sheet fed for CMYK for example). Both ways accomplish the same thing - one with the options exposed. Hope this helps.
cheers n.

[Markzebra]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

… makes no difference to the WAY it converts, just allows you to choose options without changing your basic preferences. So its a compeletely distracting point.

[Markzebra]

Re: my 1st post..red cast on Lacie 324/CS4 RGB to

Ok main topic - this is all getting very complex, feel like a kid getting that Rubics cube …*your description is quite difficult to understand if you don't mind me saying, especially because you are copying and pasting, and line breaks are confusing things.

The screen shot is fairly arbitary because it shows the same RGB colors in CS3 and 4 which is exactly what i would expect to see - proofing monitor RGB is maybe VERY subtly yellower in CS3 for some reason? There are no CMYK colors here and the main difference you were reporting, was to do with the way it was displaying CMYK colors I thought.

NOW - the most important line you have written, you are talking here about the LaCie …

Comparing Monitor RGB soft proof mode between CS3 & 4 is exhibiting the same difference that I would see > between Monitor RGB and soft proof off in CS3 alone.

THIS line doesn't make any sense - and is confusing things for me hugely.

You'll have to try again I'm sorry.

Let me explain - SOFT PROOFING is merely a change to the way photoshop displays your colors. When you choose "monitor RGB" its using the MONITOR PROFILE directly to display.