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  • sharpen plus tool

    I seem to be having some difficulty with the sharpen plus tool. When I split luminosity, select the lum layer and then the tool the first step works well and gives an improved image. Then the actions selects the composit layer for the second sharpening step which doesn't seem right and doesn't seem to do anything. On the other hand when I start with the background, the tool progresses fine but the result looks awful.
    confused,

    Lary

  • #2
    Originally posted by lary_s
    I seem to be having some difficulty with the sharpen plus tool. When I split luminosity, select the lum layer and then the tool the first step works well and gives an improved image. Then the actions selects the composit layer for the second sharpening step which doesn't seem right and doesn't seem to do anything. On the other hand when I start with the background, the tool progresses fine but the result looks awful.
    confused,
    Unfortunately, that seems to be another of the annoying mistakes in the book. You can get the Sharpen Plus tool to work if you turn off the visibility on all the layers except the Luminosity layer. However, when I tried to use the Sharpen Plus tool, I never could get results that were any good, so I don't think the tool has any value. If you want to sharpen your image and get good results, as well as USM, try these sharpening techniques

    Smart Sharpening
    http://retouchpro.com/tutorials/?m=show&id=69

    High Pass sharpening
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...arpening.shtml
    Last edited by dpnew; 02-18-2004, 08:44 PM.

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    • #3
      Dear Mr. New,

      I am not sure what the problem is, but you are extremely negative about the book and tools. If you don't like the stuff, please return it and get something else that you find fitting. Again, again, i am not saying there are not some errors, apologies, apologies...but there is also no need to be so gruff. I will be glad to see your book when it comes out, as i am sure it will be much better.

      The tool was originally designed and tested in the latter stages of the Elements 2 beta, where it worked just fine. The problem is that a late change in the beta (after the book was already going to press, and before the release of the clean version) corrected an error where too many steps ended up recorded in the History (which, to my own demise, I complained about). Because the tool was created before the correction, the series as released steps back one step too many, and in this case it brings you to the wrong layer. It is a simple problem really.

      What you would want to do is make the sharpening (USM) application manually. All you do is this:

      1. Split the luminosity and color.
      2. Click the Sharpen tool
      3. Click the Luminosity layer, and apply Unsharp Mask.

      Again, the IDEA is far more important than the implementation of the tool. if you are really interested, i can easily make a replacement available. However, I would appreciate it if we could all play nice. negativity makes it a little distasteful to have to trudge over here to provide support.

      Thanks!

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks

        Thanks,

        That is how I thought I should do it, however, being relatively new at this I always wonder if its me or the program.

        While I'm at it, let me ask some other questions on sharpening. It's my understanding that one should use different technques for different situations or effects (duh) but I not clear on which ones work best for which. The manual sharpeing thread suggests the sharpen tool is best for shadows and highlights so much midtones. Prehaps you could give us a kind of list for the different times you use different techniques?

        My primary situation is trying to sharpen wood furniture. For my portofolio, i am always trying to push the limits of my digital camera to get as sharp and image as I can (Wish I could afford a better camera). What would you then to use for sharpening wood grain, especially when the grain is just about at the limit of resolution? It seems that the edge finding method would not work well because there are essentiall edges everywhere. Any tips would be greatly appreaciate. Thanks

        lary

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        • #5
          Can you post a sample image?

          Comment


          • #6
            While I'm at it, let me ask some other questions on sharpening. It's my understanding that one should use different technques for different situations or effects (duh) but I not clear on which ones work best for which.

            Since sharpening is a matter of personal taste, that's a hard question to answer. I would start with USM, but if the image is too busy, and the sharpening effect isn't what you want, then try Smart sharpening or High Pass sharpening. As you get more experience trying different things, you'll find out what works and what doesn't--for me the Sharpen tool and Sharpen Plus tool don't produce good results.


            What would you then to use for sharpening wood grain, especially when the grain is just about at the limit of resolution? It seems that the edge finding method would not work well because there are essentiall edges everywhere.

            I would suggest the USM filter, but no sharpening method can bring sharpness to an image that isn't focused and clear to begin with, so if the wood grain is at the limit of the resolution, you may not be able to sharpen it well.

            Comment


            • #7
              Making suggestions without seeing the image and knowing what needs to be sharpened is a real crap shoot. Using a single method doesn't promise the possibility of making an optimal correction. I would treat very light or very dark wood differently than a medium toned wood. To some extent it is a matter of taste, and to another extent it is practice and knowing good technique. USM will enhance contrast and manual sharpening provided with the book will reduce it. Depending on the image you can use either or both. High Pass using Hard Light as described in that tutorial will make broad changes to image color. I am not convinced that it would be a good idea to use this on a color image without separating luminosity from the color. The process is somewhat kin to the Sharpen tool in the book (which I don't believe should be used straight on color images either).

              DPNEW, the sharpen (we've discussed the issue with the Plus tool -- which can be worked around easily) from my book doesn't produce good results for you because you are obviously using it incorrectly. This mimics the darkroom process that the filter was developed from, and it is not likely that it just doesn't work. If it didn't the USM (which is based on a calculation rather than a comparison) would not exist.

              Comment


              • #8
                Sharpening

                Larry,
                Try this:
                Duplicate layer
                Filter>other>high pass setting 10%
                Layers>hard light opacity 30-70%
                Ken

                Comment


                • #9
                  If you must use High Pass, please do it as follows:

                  1. Flatten image (otherwise I have nowhere to start)
                  2. Duplicate the background. Change the Mode to Luminosity. Name the layer Luminosity.
                  3. Duplicate the Luminosity layer. Change the mode to Hard Light, name it High Pass, and group the High Pass and Luminosity layers (Luminosity should be the base of the group).
                  4. Run the High Pass filter on the High Pass layer. SETTINGS WILL VARY DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION IN THE IMAGE.

                  I don't believe it works any better than USM for most images. However, the method I've depicted above separates out the color from the tone so that the color is not affected by the change and application of the filter. This will most likely produce superior results to just flatly applying the change to the image.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sharpen

                    Thanks, Richard.
                    Works nicely.
                    I had actually separated an image in to foreground and background, then split RGBL on the foreground, and sharpened the luminosity layer and applied curves. That way the forground stands out, leaving the backgound less prominent. When I took the picture I should taken it in aperture priority to adjust the depth of field, but did not do it because of the constraint of the moment.
                    Ken
                    Last edited by Ken; 02-20-2004, 01:55 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Combining use of different sharpening types (my Sharpen and USM, or my Sharpen and the High Pass method) will most likely bring about the best results. The USM and High Pass methods work in an almost opposite way than the tool--though each enhances the edges. Working them together may help you avoid halos.

                      Glad you got the result you were looking for.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Richard_Lynch
                        Can you post a sample image?
                        yes, I'll post one. it may take me a few days as things are really hectic right now.

                        lary

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          sharpening wood

                          Thanks everyone, lots to think about and try. I'll post a an image as soon as I can ( and as soon as I figure out how).

                          Lary

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Furniture Images to sharpen

                            Here is one example - an important one because I can't retake the photos.

                            The full view shows what the overall image would sort of look like, although I have severely cropped it to minize fill size while still giving the basic idea (full photo would include much more ceiling and rug). At a minimum I'd like a high quality "8x10" print as sharp as possible or a larger print if possible while still being sharp. (original file 2940x1736, 6MB file from camera). Full size image was resized in 10% steps in elements to 1400x519, then saved for web with JPEG medium, qual 50% to get under 100KB limit.

                            Detail of panel is provided to show actual resolution for sharpening. As you can see the wood grain is almost at the limit of the file. If full image is 9.9" long, this detail would be 1.38"x1.38". Detail was saved at full resolution with JPEG to highest, 100%.
                            Processing so far: slight straigthening, some cloning corrections, tone/levels and color cast with a grey area of the TV. More color correction and I think brightening and increased saturation(??) for a better print will need to be done.

                            Thanks for any help. I'll also put up another image quite different.

                            [IMG]http://[/IMG]
                            Attached Files

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                            • #15
                              Wall cabinet/mirror

                              Again, I'm trying to get as large and detailed photo as reasonable. The birds-eye maple and darker thistle make this harder. I think the swirlin nature of the "eyes" make it hard to look in focus. Image size was 1639 x 2198 (4MB cameral file), 7.5 x 10". Processing so far includes staighten, crop, reduce color noise, surves, colorcast and saturation increase (master +8). This copy is not yet sharpened but I had used "sharpen plus" on luminosity w/ radius 5 and then an USM at ? (probably something like 75%, radius 1-4, threshold 2). [how do people remember to write down what they do? I usually forget to in the middle of working! Wish there was a way elements would journal changes.]

                              To get full size down to 100kB I cropped close ot 5.3" x 9.3" 1173 x 2044, resized/resampled in 10% increments in elements to 800x1395, res 150; saved to web with JPEG 50%.

                              Detail is again at full resolution (1.7" x 1.6" if full image size is 7.5 x 10") and JPEG to 100%.

                              Thanks for the help any suggestions would be very helpful,

                              Lary
                              Attached Files

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